Live from Emo Dojo
Live from Emo Dojo

Episode · 2 years ago

Could Emotional Dysregulation Be Another Type Of Spectrum Disorder?

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

Becky, from That B-Word Podcast, is my special guest this week as she lets me bounce my theory off her that bipolar, borderline, ADHD and related impairments are all part of the same spectrum of conditions. @ThatBWord1 @BipolarStyle 
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It's only and now it's online Biblethis stylecom motions with Bible style. Welcome back to buy polar style. I'mJohnny Emotions and today my very special guest, you may remember her from previous episodes, is becky from that be word podcast. How are you doing,Becky? Hey, John Idan, pretty good. How are you doing?Things are moving along and you know, I hit you up on twitter theother day because I was reading the interesting book and there was a passage inthe book that got me to think it and I wanted to have a discussionabout something that only you could help me discuss. M That my other friendson my other podcasts are into this stuff, so I thought you would be perfect, especially because your podcast, that b word, covers things like bipolarand borderline personality disorder. So you're already halfway there. So, if youdon't mind, let me just read about two or three sentences that prompted meto reach out to you. Cool. Yeah, all right. So I'lljust pick it up here in the middle of the paragraph. If Mania expressesanxiety, depression and under arousal express shame. Shame, like anxiety, is anattachment emotion. Quote. Whenever someone becomes significant to us. Whenever another'scaring, respect or valuing matters, the possibility for generating shame emerges. Rightpsychologist Gershen Kaufman, the origin of shame is the feeling of having been cutoff from the parents, of having lost the connection, if only momentarily.It cannot be helped. It occurs unavoidably as part of maturing. So inthinking about that, I started to wonder if you know how autism is aspectrum, aspurger's autism and that sort of thing, and it's also kind ofa mysterious impairment, let's call it, much in the same way that bipolar, borderline and even anxiety to some extent, although anxieties quite a bit more understood. But especially with a bipolar and borderline, they appear to have manysimilar symptoms. Almost, okay, a cause and effect type of thing.One of the bigger things that people talk about borderline is the inability to maintainrelationships. It's kind of chaotic in that sense. MMM, but of courseif you are feeling shame and anxious because of mood swings, then yeah,of course it's going to be hard to maintain relationship ships. In other words, what I'm getting at is, if you have bipolar disorder and display thosesymptoms, would they not cause the same problems that a borderline diagnosis would cause? And then vice versa? If your borderline and can't maintain relationships as easilyas a fully functioning person, let's say, then might that cause shame and anxietyapparent in a bipolar person? Right? Yeah, I know, there's somuch overlap it's hard to tell, like one where one ends in theother begins. So I think there's definitely a likelihood that they're on the samespectrum. And okay, so this is the part that's kind of the mindfuck. Excuse my language. He right. I'm reading a book on Add adhd, and that passage I just read, I just swapped out the words maniawith hyperactivity and depression with lethargy. The actual paragraph reads, if hyperactivityexpresses anxiety, lethargy and under arousal express...

...shame. That's what got me thinking, like, wait a second, it's bipolar disorder is very similar to Adhd, to attention deficit disorder, in many cases, including where we seem toget it from, which tends to be the DNA from our parents brought intothe real world in the context of your upbringing and the environment that you wereraised in. Let's call it your programming. In other words, people are programmedto be add or Adhd, and I'm starting to think in the sameway, maybe we are also programmed to become bipolar. Those activities in thatenvironment then trigger what people commonly call a chemical imbalance, although that's kind ofa misnomer. What do you think about that? I mean the fact thatthey're so closely resembled and that I could just simply switch out a couple ofwords, hyperactivity for mania, lethargy for depression, and the passage makes sense. Yeah, it does. Yeah, I would never have known that youswitched out those words if you hadn't have told me. I never thought aboutthe similaries between bipolar disorder and adhd before. Until, until I started reading aboutAdhd, I simply thought it was, hmm, hyperactivity, like, forlack of a better word, just spazzy kids running around outer control.That's my idea of hyperactivity and attention. Then on the other side, attentiondeficit disorder. I thought it was meant like the slow kids who couldn't payattention. But I've since I've since found out it's not that way. Soapparently adhd and add a good metaphor they included in this particular book, isso, say you have all these in neurons firing off in your head,like imagine their little cars, but they are cars with no drivers. They'redumb cars. They need a traffic cop to tell them where to go,which way to go, when to stop, when to go. Apparently, inthe adhd mind that traffic cop is fallen asleep, so it's just kindof mayhem up there. Yeah, that's why they give people with adhd effectivelyspeed. They give them something, some type of amphetamine product like riddling,that simply wakes up the traffic cop, because it seems counter intuitive to me, like why would you give a hyperactive person speed? Well, now Iknow why. They give it the apparently the hyperactivity is just a lack ofcontrol of the automobiles crashing through each other through the intersection, and the speedsimply wakes up the traffic cop and allows them to pause and make better decisionsbased on the incoming data. Some that I'm thinking. Well, how's that? You know that disregulation of those types of emotions much different than bipolar disorder. Again, we're still addressing some kind of traffic cops, some kind of, you know, organizer of thoughts, but the medicine that they've given usfor bipolar disorders so much different. Oh yeah, it's the exact oppset.Yeah, yeah, in many cases for sure, like I'm not sure themechanisms for antipsychotics, for example. But I know, and I discovered allthis because I keep a list of all the meds I've been taking. I'vebeen trying to work on this issue for twenty years, right, and Ithink I've gone through all of them. I think there might be one newmed for bipolar that's come out in the past year that I haven't taken.So I basically stopped. It vibrid. You ever tried vibrid? Hmm?No, yeah, it's a computed that one. Yeah, it's like twoor three years old. May Be a little older than that, but Iremember taking it. That was the last kind of antipsychotic bipolar specific med Itook and none of them were having any...

...effect. So I kept going backto different doctors and then I moved out of state to a different place andthought hey, I'll start fresh. I'm not going to tell them like,and we talked about this offline, when you get a diagnosis and it feelsright and it says yeah, that fits, that's a reason. Like when Igot diagnosed as bipolar, I thought, wow, okay, that explains x, Y and Z. So what do I do? I kind ofput that on like a badge and the next time I go to a doctorI say, yeah, I have bipolar disorder. Well, that doctors notgonna you know, it doesn't have much time. He's got another patient twentyminutes. He's just going to go with what I told him. It's notreally his role to crack my brain open and start doing therapy on me rightthere. He's just going to go with what I told him. Give methe next MED that might work, so on and so forth. And likemaybe you know as well as I, they don't like to give us depressionmeds, antidepressants, MMM, because they think, oh, it might makeyou more mannic. Well, if, if it's not mania, if youdon't have bipolar disorder, then antidepressant won't be that bad for you. Sohere's where I ended up on this kind of spectrum discussion. I went toa doctor I said, look, I've tried everything. I'm super depressed.I've tried all of the antipsychotics that exist. Of never ever had antidepressants. Couldbe at least try. Like I'm my feeling. I'm feeling depressed andanxious. So this new doctor, who I didn't say anything about bipolar to, based on what I presented and how I looked and felt and all that, prescribed antidepressants and anxiety met. Interesting. Now the anxiety made it turned outafter talking to others, was almost like a placebo. was like antihistamine. So it wasn't any hard. Wasn't like hardcore. Yeah, so onthe same one, I think. Yeah, and yeah, okay, it mademe shaky at first. Didn't really address the anxiety and the and theantidepressant I might have worked. I just couldn't tell. I'm still like generallydepressed. So after a few months of this, I like, well,why am I still depressed? I thought I started to think a little deeper. I'm like, you know what it's because I'm off track. Up Ifyou can remember back the last time you were happy a lot of time justbecause you are engaged in your life. You are living on purpose. Iguess is a good way to put it, you had a job you liked,you know, the living situation or your friends and family or social circleswere in alignments, let's say, and you know, you just had areason to get up each day and like that's what I'm missing. I'm justmissing the engagement with my own life. So I worked backwards. I'm like, how about if I just engage my life and see if that doesn't alleviatesome of the depression and anxiety, my thought being that if I'm too busyliving my life in a way that I want to live, I won't havetime to focus on the depression. It's not saying that I won't get depressed, but when I get depressed and focus on it, that's all I becomeis just depressed, depressed, depressed. HMM. Yeah, yeah, I'vealways wondered the same thing. I hyper like focusing too much on whatever illnessyou have there, it's depression or by board disorder or board inline, actuallywill make it worse. But then again, there's something to be said for understandingyour illness. I mean saying that you are correctly diagnosed right. That'ssuper, super important. I can't stress that enough. I think I broughtit up in the newbies guy to bipolar disorder a couple of episodes ago,and the first thing is the diagnosis. Well, man, it is socritical to keep asking questions. So if you, the listener out there,just got diagnosed for the first time with...

...bipolar, I would really hesitate kindof wearing that as your new superhero emblem. It might not be accurate and youmight be chasing a phantom. Really, if you're if it's an inaccurate diagnosis, and I'm not saying people are misdiagnosing people on purpose or maliciously,it just happens because it's such a complex disorder. I'm just saying like,just because one doctor said you had this, it might have meant that he justread or she just read a book about it yesterday, and that's thetop of their mind right now. And again, doctors in America don't havea lot of time to spend with you and therapy is expensive. So thedoctor handing out the medicine is just going to try to relieve the symptoms thatyou present and it might be wrong, though diagnosis itself might be wrong.So I think it's important to keep seeing at least get a second opinion,maybe a third even. I'm not saying go shop around until you get theanswer you want. Of course that would be counterproductive. I'm just saying thatdon't accept the first thing somebody throws on you, especially when it's so stigmatizing, like like bipolar disorder, for example, when I was talking about my depressionand anxiety at the emergency room one day here in Louisiana, versus California, boy, those doctors in the emergency room had no problem when somebody hadmentioned, not me, but somebody had mentioned borderline. One of the doctors, like the Er surgeon or something, rolled their eyes like Oh, yeah, you don't want that. Yes, law calls. I'm like what,they still think that way here? Like medical doctors in an ear in a, you know, major city, in a town in America or whatever,are still stigmatizing people with bipolar and borderline. So if you're yeah, if you'renew to the game, let's say, just be really careful on accepting thediagnosis at first. Don't resist it if it's accurate, don't, likeI said, don't shop around to get the answer you want, but manget a second opinion or a third opinion so that you know where you mightbe on the spectrum, because after twenty years of taken antipsychotics, maybe I'mnot bipolar at all anyway, which is kind of fortunate that I called theshow bipolar style instead of I have bipolar disorder and make maybe it's kind ofsort of and I don't really have a problem shifting or changing or evolving withwhat I learn. How many times have you gone to the doctor to geta diagnosis and did you accept your first bipolar disorder diagnosis? I did.It made months. So a lot of the things kind of clicked when whenI got diagnosed and I never really questioned it. I didn't always take mymeds like I was supposed to, but I never questioned that that I mighthave my pholey disorder. But as far as borderline goes, I think evenmore so that even that seemed to fit my symptoms even more. HMM.Yeah, sometimes I think, especially the more I read. I was justreading borderline symptoms earlier before we got on the air. Sometimes I think thoseare just the result of the other disorders, like if you're super anxious, superdepressed, if you have bipolar like mania and depression, will having havingthose would cause the symptoms that are collectively called borderline personality disorder, and I'mlike, that's not fair to call the symptoms of collection of symptoms from otherdisorder a new disorder the like. Where does that stop? You know,I was thinking about that the other day actually, and I was thinking thatit might have been the other way around,...

...because it seems to me that alot of the things that create borderline symptoms happen when you're a lot youngerthan than is normal. We then diploy disorder easually presents itself. Right,right, yeah, so I was thinking it might be the other way around, that having borderline personalities order makes you more likely to be diagnosed with bipolardisorder because of, you know, the mood swings essentially. Yeah, yeah, the things you present just line up with Oh, this new diagnosis and, yeah, the borderline thing. When you read the symptoms of borderline,I don't know, maybe it's because I have it or something, but theyseem like things that will Geez, this is like a horoscope, you know. Anybody could have these symptoms to some extent. Of sure, if theyget bad, then yeah, you're going to have a problem. But whenI read the symptoms like at. Most people I know have these, includingpeople I know that never see a psychiatrist or a therapist, that I'm like, well, this is just like a horoscope or fortune cookie, just likelike. But then when you get that diagnosis of bipolar, it's like,oh my gosh, this is a serious medical condition, only because they cantreat it with pills like a they don't normally start you off with pills whenyou have borderline, like to my regulation, I don't. I've never been givenany kind of medication for borderline. Have you not specifically now I thinkthat sometimes they'll give you like anti anxiety medicines to deal with the anxiety,but nothing specifically for borderline anxiety. Is Trip. Yeah, anxiety apparent.Well, anxiety is like a natural response. We can get out of control ifwe're not programmed correctly as babies, infants, children and such. SoI think that's a big reason why so many people have anxiety these days.It's not it's not that more people have it. I think well maybe,maybe, generation x, self included, as raised a bunch of people thatare super anxious because of single parent and the in the house or just stressedout family situations. That will cause an infant to develop anxiety. Anxiety overtime can cause you to be depressed. Anxiety and depression now look like Ican't form relationships. I can't form relationships. Then turns into the symptoms that looklike bipolar disorder. It gets I hesitate to talk too deeply about thisbecause I'm not like a medical professional, not a scientist. I do lotsof research, so I try not to like spread a bunch of bullshit,but I I just wish people would stay openminded about their diagnosis so that theymight realize it's something else, like when I'd like. Now I Take Med'slike there's an adult version of riddling, and that Shit works pretty well.I'm not depressed right now and I feel like I'm on track. I'm notsure if it's cause or effect. Like I said, when I feel likeI'm living on purpose and I'm aligned with my social circles and things like that, I'm less depressed. But is it the CONCERTA that I take now thathas allowed me to sort out my thoughts better? Because it was add allalong? That eliminates my anxiety and the symptoms that look like borderline or bipolar. So the whole thing is really a mystery. I'm not like down onmyself about it and I think it's smart to change as you get new information, you know, to go with the flow. Yeah, you got toqualify the information. It's not like, I don't know, Hokey like whichDr kind of fixes for things or without diminishing religion, like prayer, willnot solve these issues either, especially because a lot of times they came fromthe parents themselves, which is something that's hard for people to admit, bothas a as a child. It's hard...

...to, quote unquote, blame yourparent when I don't think it's once you understand the whole, like the bigpicture of all of this, there is no blame. It just your parentswere fucked up because their parents were fucked up and their parents were funing becausetheir parents were fucked up. And we just come from a long line ofa fuckery right, because our parents lived through literally world wars and they struggledthrough depressions, like grandparents struggle through depressions, and then there was war and then, if you're born in the summer of love or during the Vietnam era, there's that stress and society and then, when you're old enough to have kids. Now it's the you know, s or s or early thousand orwhatever, whatever is happening in society right it there is going to affect theway you raise your kids. And now all of a sudden, either becausewe just have the Internet and more people are aware, aware of things likethat and able to freely speak about them. So I can't tell if there's moreanxiety or we just see more of it, but it's all. Itall goes back to our environment we were raised in. Yeah, I don'tknow what to do about that. I can't go back and right history.Right, you can like have so instead of blame me, and I thinkit's just important to learn. HMM, except the new things we find.Do you have any traits? Have you ever considered something other than borderline orbipolar for your condition, in this case, like add or Adhd? Have youever thought that you might have had that? I never did. Myhusband has adhd and his symptoms look completely different from mine. Really it's anand I never really considered the fact that I might have Adhd, although itkind of makes sense the way you use your parking about. Yeah, itis interesting. I've in the like anything else, once you start studying onetopic, everything kind of starts to align with that topic. I just sawa story last night. The said kids that of the youngest in class tendto have a higher instance of Adhd and depression. Well, when I wasin first grade aid, I went home at Christmas break and when I cameback they made me a second greater. So I went from being a quoteunquote normal kid to living out the rest of my life as the youngest kidin class. Yeah, I didn't think much about it then. Is theyoungest in class year you were. Yeah, that's that's fastinted. Of course therekindergarten earlier than everybody else, but so, yeah, it all.It's like. That's why it's so important to figure out, like let's getthe labels right. Let's figure out what we're doing to kids when they're infants. I mean even the the court of zone levels of a mother while she'spregnant affects the development of her child's brain in the womb right. So thekid could pop out with anxiety, not not depression. There's no like basisfor depression yet, but definitely a fight or flight response when you're baby andthat's you looking for your parents eyes, you know, and you darting allaround the room looking for acceptance and all that stuff. That's kind of thesimilar, similar things to the way I felt. And then I realized that, wait a second, I think I was diagnosed as that as a youngerchild. I just completely put it out of my mind. Never even thoughtabout it. Really, it's totally weird, right. And then when I getin my twenties I get diagnosis bipolar, like what? In hindsight, I'mlike, why did I accept that diagnosis? Why didn't I just rememberthat I had been diagnosed Adihd as a child, but I was just nevertreated for it because my parent didn't want to acknowledge they're part of all ofthat. Yeah, I don't know if they didn't want to acknowledge their partof it or if they were narcissistic and didn't want to accept that they hada impaired child. Right, they didn't want to accept responsibility for anything thatmight have caused that or something like that.

Yeah, I can understand how.Yeah, I can understand how a parent might fight that diagnosis. Yeah, especially if they're not evolved in the way that like, for example,you and I are, because we're in the mental health scene, let's callit. So, if you know, to have kids, I would evenraise my own kids differently than I did. I thought I did a pretty goodjob raising my kids and they turned out fine. But did they?Are they going to develop anxiety and depression because I raised them in a highstress environment, because I was strung out on stress and just were? It'shard to yeah, but again, because now I know what I know,I'm not looking at my mom and my dad. Didn't blame me them becauseI know exactly who raised my mom and my dad. My grandparents were alivewhen I was younger and I got to see who raise them. So inmany ways I think, well, even though you, mom and Dad,don't accept your conditions, I will accept your conditions because I'm more aware.I've studied a lot more about mental health and I kind of accept them asthey are. It's difficult sometimes because sometimes they they pretend that they're fine orthey pretend that because I study mental health, that I must be the crazy one. I don't know. But again back to the blame and the faultthing. I just don't think there's room for it in in a healthy recoverybut facts or facts and we are programmed at at infancy to be the waywe are and whatever chemical set we have in our brain at the time,it's going to process it that way. Is it really fascinating bit in thisbook that talks about the Guy who wrote this book I'm reading. It's calledscattered. It's good or mate, who also wrote the addiction book about HungryGhosts. Ever heard that? HMM. The guy's a great author. Heworks with homeless people up in Canada on the West Coast, and all ofhis books are both medical and speak from experience. Because Dr Matte has addhimself. He brought up a great point that all of his kids, despitehaving the same parents, were raised by different parents. Follow yeah, inother words, like when the first kid was born, and this would bethe same for me or anybody that has kids. When you first kids born, they're born into a situation with parents that don't know shit about parenting.They're just making it all up, and there's the stress of having a firstkid. You go from zero kids to one kid. That's a big jumpand so you're in a stressful environment. Can we make it? Do wesave enough money to raise this kid? Blah, Blah Blah. Now bythe time the next kid comes along you've got practice parents. Don't worry aboutit, no worries, I could change a diaper with one hand, thewhole thing right. There's no apprehension or panic, nothing like that. Withthe second kid, if you have a third or fourth or continue on withmore kids, you're going to be a different set of parents each time.So I found even those subtle differences really important to where you are developed inthe in the whole process of your family. So if you were the firstborn,a second or a thirdborn, there's lots of studies. I think ofFreud and Adler and a couple of others. Even young did studies on birth orderand what it means, and a lot of it just kind of pointsto what Dr Mate says, that you know you can do despite having thesame parents. Each kid is raised by a different parent because of the timeline, because the adults evolved even, of course, of a day or aweek, of course over nine months or a couple of years. Those aregoing to be different parents, different financial situation, different living situations. Borninto a family of three instead of a family of two parents. So there'sso much involved with their programming that we just we don't ignore, but wejust it's not something that's top of mind for most people. So a lotof this comes into place of the anxiety...

...is the depressions we have, theemotional states, the mood swings, the things that lead to the symptoms thatwe show could come from any direction. So the fact that I think it'sa spectrum now, not medically proven or anything, but just seeing that allthese quote unquote disorders are collections of symptoms that that overlap like then diagram.One of the interesting things I've found out about adhd that really set with mewas the idea of something called counter will, psychological term. Kids develop it whenwe feel we're being coerced, and the interesting thing about counter will ina child is that kids know if they're being coerced, whether it's with aspanking or with candy. The idea that we're being coerced alone will affect usa child with Adhd, because we will push against that and sometimes the ideathat we're distracted or can't finish anything is directly related to counter will. It'snot that we can't, is we refuse, like we not in control of refusing, but our brain is saying, wait a second, I'm being coercedhere. Someone's trying to get me to do something that I didn't think ofmyself and voluntarily. You know, accept this is coercion and I'm not havingit. Of We don't. Yeah, we don't speak that through. Wedon't like carry the thought out into the public like but I found the wholeidea of counter will to be really interesting, especially with like I'm an anarchist.I just refuse authority. While I'm like, well, maybe that's routeddirectly to the counter will. Maybe anytime someone tells me I'm supposed to dosomething or live a certain way, my inherent reaction is to counter it,is to be against that. Yeah, I kind of do rest that.That's resonate with me a little B bit as far as I wasn't as akid anyway. Yeah, yeah, and and I do. It was funnybecause I found my parents moved recently and when they are moving, I founda bunch of paperwork that had some of my documents from when they had takenme to see a psychologist as as a child and evidently one of the psychologistsdiagnosed me with Adhd and one said I did not have a dhd but thatI was just a mini Beatle, that manipulative child. Wow, that yeah, the doctor talks about that in this book to how we're when I saywe, it could be applied to borderline kids, to adhd kids or whatnot. But yeah, the word manipulative comes up a lot. They think we'retrying to manipulate the situation. And what's really interesting was attention deficit disorder.He brought it up like a bank account, like our ore. We are outof attention. Nobody gave us the proper attention as child's, as children, I mean when we were forming, when we were adolescence, you know, two years old, six years older, wherever. We didn't get the properkind of attention. That's what we're at a deficit of. It's notthat we cannot pay attention. That's what was the block with me. I'mlike, well, I can pay attention, I'm hiper focused, I can Ican do all these things, but even that hyper focus is a isa tool for distracting yourself. You're distracting yourself from the pressure, in theanxiety of life by hiper focusing on a thing that you're really interested in.So it just comes to this big kind of cluster fucking my mind and I'mlike, well, is it counter will? Am I pushing against what's really goingon here? HMM. It's fascinating. And what's really interesting, especially likein in Louisiana, for example, I have no problem telling people likemy when I go to a doctor appointment or a therapy appointment or somebody elsegot like the Pharmacy, oh I'm just picking up my add meds. Noone bats an eye. No one,...

...yea, it's an eye. IfI said I was picking up my bipolar meds, they've do you know,back up step. It's all of a sudden become quiet of so many,so many differences between the stigmas involved in each particular disorder. And like thedoctor was the surgeon that the ear was talking about, rolling his eyes aboutborderline people. No, you don't want that, like well, I don'tthink people who have that attitual voice. You know what I mean? Thatwas that's the programming we got. So how do we with people talk aboutspreading awareness in the mental health community? I'm like, it drives me crazybecause, yes, we know, we're aware. It exists, but let'sbe more aware of of other things, like the causes. And is therea blame? Oh, it's not a blame, it's the programming we receivedas kid. So I wish, I wish when we spread awareness we weremore specific about what to be aware of, because just being aware that people areanxious and depressed, that's kind of falls on deaf ears. Everyone,I think, inherently knows that people get anxious and depressed and to stifle thatis one thing. That's an argument. You know, based on your familyupbringing, whether you stifle your feelings and don't make a scene or or ifyou just let it out and cry like a baby, or however you wantto frame it. But the idea that we're just running around accepting labels andthen trying to fit our personality to the label. Like, for example,if someone said you had bipolar disorder, when to go read on wikipedia andthe Mayo Clinic and all those websites about bipolar disorder. And now every everytime I'm starting to feel a certain way, I'm like, Oh, yeah,that's bipolar disorder and that's okay because that's what I have. But inmy mind now I'm like it's not. Okay, it might not be whatyou have. Just just be you, like try to be the best youyou can be, without living like, like say, living down to thelabel. I would say, living up to the label of someone says,yes, you're a rich prince of Malaysia, like well, okay, I'm goingto live up to that. Well, if they say you your bipolar,borderline Adhd, I think it's important also not to live down to thatlabel, like try to rise above it and, yeah, and show peoplethat hey, normal people, like we talked about, what you focus onkind of growing. There's people with other kind of ailments that that's not theonly thing they talk about. In fact, in like physical ailments, it's oftenthe opposite. For example, if you have if you're missing a leg, you don't post all the time on the Internet like Whoa whoe was mein my vacant space where my leg was no, they're posting pictures of themwith the prosthetic leg overcoming their impairment and running a race. I don't seethat as much in the mental health world. A lot of times, if yousay, Hey, look, I've figured out a way to feel betterand to succeed in life. Others will say, well, don't rub itin our faces. That kind of thing, Mike. Why can't we support people'ssuccess is in the mental health field without knocking them down or not tryingto make it a contest like, well, you must not have it as badas I have it. Then you know who knows, who knows whohas it worse. It doesn't even matter. I think it's important that we focuson what. Yeah, what we can do. Yeah, make it, make it more like the Special Olympics or the pair Olympics or any Olympicswhere people are overcoming their shortcomings. Like I was thought would be cool tohave like a mental health Olympics or mental illness Olympics, or however you wantto call it, where people with schizophrenia and bipolar disorder and hardcore depression andall those things come together in an auditorium and perform feats of greatness, whetherit's painting or creating music or making podcast or writing books or whatever people cando to prove that their illness is not their entire being. That would befun. So if anybody out there is...

...a organizer and has lots of energy, maybe organize a mental illness Olympics instead of a contest as to who canget the most votes or the most traffic to the contest website. I've seenthat with both the mental health field and with the PODCAST field, and I'mlike, well, there's a podcast award show. What's The podcast award showabout? And I looked at the criteria. It's like yeah, whoever gets themost votes. I'm I quitting the most votes for what? What's thecriteria? Oh, the most votes to our website, I might go.So, basically, whoever generates the most traffic wins that. How's that?A podcast will what's the celebration of a podcast? I feel similarly about there'sa mental health contest. Thing goes out like best advocate or or most thisor most that, and then when I look into the criteria and like thereis no criteria. It's a it's a traffic contest. So I wish thatwe focused on important things like overcoming and focusing on the on the good thatwe do inherently as individuals, not that the good we bring to a website. HMM, yeah, that's definitely true, but it's isn't it true also thatyou have to in order for for the stigma to be lessened because you'redoing, you know, things other than, you know, bemoaning your illness andyou're doing things like creating music or whatever you have going on. Isn'tit true that you have to first have gone through and accepted your illness andmade it public in a way for that stigma to be lessened? Yeah,I think so, kind of like in the way like like pick somebody that'sa big start. The only the two that come to mine would be somebodylike Maria Bamford or Russell brand, where they have succeeded after they've, quoteunquote, come out as a mental health patient. Is that? Is thatkind of which talking about, like like you have to acknowledge it first inorder to be an advocate or a champion of the of the cause. Inother words, if you just go and succeed, well then there's no pointin it. Announcing it. There's like people say that staying or Elon Muskhave bipolar but not they have never, liked come out specifically and said they'vealluded to it, but they've alluded to it in ways that were so casualyou can't really tell if they were just using the word wrong or yeah,what right? And we don't know them personally, so we can't tell itthat guy just stays up too many hours or that guy's are creating genius regardless. But you're right. So that makes sense. I mean you have tokind of like you can't be can't go to the is there a Gay Olympics? You couldn't go to the town. Well, if there was, youmean you wouldn't. You couldn't go to the Gay Olympics unless you actually cameout first as being gay. Like you have to acknowledge the stigma, Iguess, is what you're really doing before you can go and overcome it.But what I see is a lot of people acknowledging the stigma, but thenthey don't do anything to overcome it. They kind of wallow in the mireand like, okay, I acknowledge my stigma and now I'm just going tosit here and wine about it year after year on twitter. I'm like,don't do that. Show us what you can do next, like show usthat you are a capable advocate and leader by becoming better. You know whatI mean. So I think if we don't become better, we're horrible advocates. If we just keep repeating the same thing just for clicks and likes.Then that is the contest, the Click and light contest. But who doesthat serve? I think to a point it only serves the people getting theclicks and the likes. It might help people at first to hear about others, but it's not going to help them...

...anymore if those people that they're listeningto and following are not progressing in their recovery. Yeah, it sound Jaddto a sound cynical um a little bit. I kind of am. I'm wonderingif it's just with age or my personality in general, but sometimes Ijust give just fed up of like everything's got to be a contest or likein capitalism, like well, how much money does it make? So toimply that we're supposed to be in a some kind of a contest to generatetraffic or generate money, I think defeats the purpose. But that's why Ilike your podcast, for example, and a handful of others, but therearen't many because most of them, when it gets down to it, they'rethey're playing that old dopamine game for clicks and money anyway. So how isyour podcast doing? By the way, it's doing pretty well. I gotI took a pretty extended hiatus there for a while, but I'm back doingdoing them weekly. So Nice, pretty good. have any guests you wantto talk about? Any guests you have recently you want to mention? Becausethis is not a commercial venture, we could talk about all of the greatthings and promote the best of the best. Who did I have on recently?Let's see. Well, coming up I'm going to have cathy from discussingdissociation back on and I really enjoyed our first conversation because I learned a lotabout dissociative identity disorder from her and some I'm looking forward to that and hopefullyI can learn them even more from her next time. Yeah, that soundsneat. What is yeah, for people who don't know what disassociative identity disorderis, can you like summarize it in a nutshell? It well, it'swhat used to be called multiple personality disorder, but that's kind of a misnomer.But it's when it's a response to trauma that occurs generally as a child, where you create altars to enjoy the trauma so you don't have to doit deal with it in your daty day life. Does that make sense totally? It's that that's actually quite amazing really, the power of the brain to beable to do that. I mean we all do it in a sense, like we create our defense mechanisms, whether it's hyper focus or, likewe were talking about earlier, lethargy, where you just or counter will,where like Nope, not doing that. But the idea that you would comeup with a new altar, is to call it like an alter ego orsecondary character in your mind, and to be able to refer to that characterconsistently and accurately each time is amazing to me. I'm not saying that,hey, like that's a great skill actors could have, because it sounds miserablehonestly, because I'm sure to have little control over when the characters pop up. So that is is that similar to like Sybil, back that the classicbook from the Early Days of s I think there's a book called Sybil whichwas about multiple personalities? Yeah, but I think Sybil was a criminal orI think there's crime involved, and I don't want to imply that people withthe ID or criminals at all, of course. Yeah, well, Ithink that it's the same kind of concept, that that you can create different personalitiesfor yourself. Yeah, and they can pop up, you know,in response to stress, their trauma or, you know, for no reason atall. That sounds neat, is I mean it sounds neat as atopic of discussion and discovery. Yeah, for sure. It's definitely interesting whenyou talk to like, do you know...

...what the recovery process is like?Do you try to merge all of them or do you try to sew themall together to understand that it's all you? Or I'm curious about that. Ithink that's what we're going to be talking about next time. Wow.So, if you listening to us now, the best way, the fastest wayI would find becky show is that be wordcom that be weirdcom Yep,or just look for that be word on itunes. Yeah, for sure.And if you're well into like twitter, it's at that B word one,the number one MMM. Yeah, and Beckie's really responsive. So if,yeah, especially if you're going to go, if you're into something like disassociative identitydisorder, which is a law. That's a mouthful right there. Yeah, but it makes sense and it's a lot more fair than saying split personality. Right. That's sometimes we oversimplify the labels and then they get exactly likejust bipolars. The same way people assume that, oh, you're either you'reeither fucked up, sad and depressed in bed and useless, or you're superhyper and manic and useless. You know what I mean? Like, wait, no, we live in the whole range. That's just the extremes.You're right, and same way. And I've been stifling the attention deficit disorderthing too, because, like, wait, I can pay attention. I mustnot have that. I'm fast, a bit hyper, Michael, thatthat's just hypo manic. I'm Hypo Mania. Might not be either. It couldbe both. I don't know. I feel fine today. Yeah,that yeah, well, knock on, yeah, yeah, well, it'sgreat to have you. I'm sorry over talk, but sometimes I need likesomebody who understands in and knows what I'm talking about to bounce ideas off of. And I appreciate your time so that I think this will turn out good, to think people like to hear what we're talking about and appreciate your show. I think you can have probably doing more shows more frequently than this show. So if you listen to bipolar style and you like it, you willlove that be word. So Click Pause, fast forward to the end of thisor whatever, but once you're done, immediately go out and search for thatB word and give it a listen. Becky is a fantastic interviewer. Shelistens more than she talks, which is great, and just kind ofyeah, yeah, it's a peaceful experience to listen to. So I appreciateyou've spend some time with me and I hope to see you soon on theInternet and absolutely, yeah, for sure. So if you want to follow me, I'm at at bipolar style on twitter and you can also find theshow bipolar stylecom. So I thank you for your time and we'll see youlisteners next time or on the Internet style on cheese five following joy. Excuseme,.

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