Emo Dojo
Emo Dojo

Episode 127 · 2 weeks ago

Marci Delmastro (@bPolarARt) Returns Live via Twitter Spaces

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

John Emotions welcomes back visual artist, Marci Delmastro, in a Twitter Spaces experiment / bonus episode.

We follow up on Marci's progress in the NFT marketplace, and how she's working through the many emotions of an artist in 2022. 

Visit Marci on Twitter @bPolarArt 

Visit John on Twitter @JohnEmotions 

Hey now what's happening in Johnny motions are welcome back to Emo Dojo. Today I tried a new thing, an experiment if you will. I gave the guest a choice to do the podcast the normal way, the way we had done it before. Her name is Marcy, she's an artist and she has bipolar disorder. So we talked to her before about an ft art and things like that, which means she's big on twitter, which is where nft artist primarily share their artwork and try to get people to buy it. Since she does that, I gave her the option to do twitter spaces, and twitter spaces as much like the clubhouse app where you know people just show up and you can raise your hand to speak. Well, you can also record those spaces, and the idea was to basically record her podcast in a spaces. So there's good and bad to that. If we did it again, we would do it differently, but this was the very first time, so there's a lot of trial and error involved. Anyway, what I would do differently is promoted heavily in advance, but more than that, I would promote it with an actual podcast. So in the future I will probably record a podcast here with the guests and then the following week do a twitter spaces where the guests and I talk again, but with the inclusion of audience members that can do a Qa in real time with their voices. So that's the idea for future podcast. And frankly, the audio kind of sucks. So I'm not really proud of putting recorded audio from a twitter spaces up into this RSS feed because, yeah, it's good content, but I'm into at least decent sounding audio. So you'll be forgiven if you get into this a few minutes and say that I can't do it and you know, go on to the next episode. I get it. I understand them the same way. That said, it's a cool conversation. I love talking to Marci. She and if you have bipolar disorder, you will get it like you will understand that were conversation and where she's coming from. Fortunately, because I agreed to host, I was in the right space and I was able to host that was clear minded and able to keep us on track, and that's awesome, because if we were both hyplomatic or often a in a tizzi somewhere, it probably wouldn't worked out too well. Their work up of technical issues and you'll hear them. But whatever, it's not that big of a deal. I'm just going to call this a bonus episode because of the sound quality. But know that in the future, if you want to participate, we will have guests on and then a week later we will talk to the guests live in twitter spaces. So if you don't have a twitter account, you may as well get one. I mean, yeah, I get there's stigma and a lot of people are proud that they don't have twitter accounts or whatever, but I'm just saying, if you want to participate, yeah, do that, get a twitter account. All right, so let's take a listen. This is what it sounds like when we recorded the twitter spaces. And here's a conversation with one of my friends, Marcy. She goes by the twitter handled be polar art, an artist in the NFT space here Emo Dojo. How is life going in general for you? In the past half a year we haven't talked and you know, just before the holidays were Um, it's been back and forth. I have been in the middle of a medical medication transition and you know those are always scary. Yeah, great, unknown. Yeah, it seems to be going pretty well. However, my adhd seems to be exasperated right now and so I will be talking to my doctor about that because I'm having a lot of like accidents, like falling because my brain, my body is reacting before my brain has a chance to process, before I move, and some always like dropping things, and I did a little bit of research and found out that it is a strong symptom of Adhd. So I'm going to talk to my doctor about it. What that is wild. I was. I had a problem with that last week to the point where I thought I was had early on set all timers or something. I was I was apparently the word spouse is bad in the UK, so I hate to say it, but it's the word typically is. So I was spausing so hard, back and forth, play old I need to get the key stone, more of my key's glasses. Shit. I got to get it and I'd literally started shaking. I'm like, what the yeah, it was really bizarre. I'm like, wait, do I need drugs, because I'm about medicated for Adhd currently because it raised my blood pressure. So the lesser of two...

...evils is my blood pressure is lower and my adhd is night self managed, which is true, especially when you get those physical manifestations of it like that that you are unexplainable. Yeah, I can't get I can't because of my bipolar. I can't really take adhd medicine because it induces manic episodes for me because of the stimulant. But I know there are some adhd medications that aren't stimulants. So I need to talk to my doctor about that because it's pretty serious. I mean I the other night I, instead of taking my my medication that I take at night, I accidentally took the daytime medication and that's not really that could be pretty, pretty dangerous. So but oh, yeah, yeah, is that? Sometimes you end up doubling up exactly on man exactly. So That's interesting. Yeah, because when we talked before, I don't think we really talked about ads. No, because it's not like the predominant feature and my mental health, it's really the bipolar, the depressive side, that is predominant. Yeah, I have the same too, and my doctors tell me that they're kind of cohabitate the minds of people off. Yes, both Adhd, which is kind of it sucks because then you never know if, if you're being a SPAZ or if you're suffering from hypel me I, because they're different. Yeah, they definitely are, and in the last like month I was really, really able to hone in on which one was which, but that's the first time I've ever been able to do that. Could you put that differentiation into words? Um, yeah, the adhd just feels like like my body is hyperactive but my brain isn't as hyperactive. With a mania, it's everything. It's like my brain is going insane, insanely fast and and my body is going fast. And so I think that if differentiation, I believe comes from the differences going on in my brain. Interesting and the way you just framed it also sounds like one of the differences might be the lag time in our bodies catching up. When it's just ADH yeah, when it's adhd, our brain is mber back and forth, your body has, you know, hard time to catch up and then we start fumbling and running into walls and just weird stuff. Like sometimes I feel like as an adult, grown up, I feel like I have like growing stumbling problems like I did when I was growing from a toddler to an adolescent. I just gangly weird things like yeah, the doctors and though you don't have any other problem, that's Adhd and like and I a great yeah, and then, you know what, I don't think they ever talked about that, and so it was really interesting to kind of come to that realization and I'm glad I did. Yeah, yeah, I didn't know about until you just mentioned I didn't know that that was a connection, but once you say it out like sense and yeah, yeah, and I'm glad you put it into words that way, because being hyperactive does feel like your mind is moving a little bit ahead of your body, whereas being madic it feels like everything is full tilt. Yeah, the mania. With the mania, the brain goes much, much, much faster than than it does with the ADHD. Right, it takes on a life of it. Yeah, I feel I feel like with the Adhd it's more of like a motor type of thing, whereas with bipolar it's racing of the brain. I like how you said motor there, because this presents a really insidious problem. So with bipolar we also experience depression, right, and you would think that that would be a time like, oh, okay, we're just depressed, that we can finally get some rest because we're really you know, body doesn't want to move or whatever. But while I'm depressed, I still have adhd, so that motor keeps driving. So I'd have no peace when I'm depressed. The fucking motor just keeps man in and in it get up, go, go, go, go. Yeah. So, yeah, that's the cool way you framed that. I like that's a really good point. Yeah, so what's up? Can you talk about your visitor? Yeah, it was my niece and she lives in the Netherlands and my husband and I are kind of pack rats and we have a lot of crap and the house really needed to get cleaned and it took me a good month of strenuous cleaning. And so it was. It was,...

...it was stressful and now I kind of am winding down and trying to Oh yeah, trying to figure out how to work my way back into spaces and into nft land. That's cool. I'm glad you got to take a normal life break because I mean, and like I said, normal life is a lot of work, sometimes both the the and the work preparing for a guest and then the hosting of a guest, because I love hanging out with my closest people for certain amounts of time exactly. But after a while I buy tolerance for any people or any other being is limited and I start to get really fragile and I fear that I take it out on people nearest me. So I don't think I'm a great host for more than maybe four or five hours, okay, and but that that's so. I'm always I get so wound up about trying to host people as guests. So that is pretty pretty traumatic because there's a lot of all. It's not just the cleaning of the house, it's the preparing. Yeah, are am I doing it right? Am I being a good home? Yeah, and this is family to family from a different country, so you want to put on a, you know, good representation of life here and all that. So I could imagine that's pretty stat. It was definitely stressful and I definitely like like I was talking to Eric, Eric Inin art there. I was talking to hand yesterday about like I feel like I've been away from like the NFT world for like years now. You know, that's like just been a couple weeks. Isn't why it really is. Hey, Angie, time we was supposed to. Angie Vila. Yeah, so I this is the first time I think, I've been kind of like back. I haven't spoken. You cut out there for a second, Marcie, go for the engine. I was just going to say that mercy made me to leave the space and return to get back. So sorry you guys. There she is. I'm so sorry. Yeah, that's okay. Yeah, my mom's glad. There's Parkinson's and she just got back home from Rehab and she's really not ready and so I was kind of trying to cordate. Couldn't but that coordinate with my dad to go out there tomorrow. So I just called me to give me an update. Everything's good. Everything's good for yeah, sorry, I bought that. No worries, just always. My Buddy had has two parents now, one that had Parkinson's and Alzheimer's, and it was kind of sad. It was kind of like a normal thing, I guess, for US humans to watch us in two thousand and twenty two, but it was super I don't know, it's like like that. I don't know how to say it. With that, I don't know. Not Trying to fend you, I'm just speaking to my friend's thing. But it was like they died twice. They died when they lost their man and then, you know, about a year or two later one of them passed away in the flesh. But I like, I know that's troubling. That's I don't even know how to process. So bless you and hope things get softer as they come to a landing over there on that. Yeah, so let's move on to aren't you want to start talking about or? Okay, because I'm really curious what you've been up to, not last two weeks so much as the past six months. So when we first talked in the NFT space you had just made your first sale and tones of excitement. Everybody was excited about and if yeps right, and everybody who is paying attention, most of people in this room, that sort of thing. So that was awesome and studying and your art is really unique stands out. Where where do you stand now? How what has happened since then? Um, I started experiment with digital drawing and painting and found it really, really gratifying for several months and kind of stopped doing like physical artwork and just got really really focused in on that and just read recently, like yesterday, the first thing I did after my my niece left was I got some acrylic paint out and I just needed to play around with the paint for a little while. So I'm I'm back now to, you know, traditional materials and kind of my style is moving more towards like a pure abstract with you know,...

...know identifiable content within the painting, and that's that's exciting for me. It's also kind of scary because abstract art is really difficult. People don't really, I think a lot of times people don't realize how difficult, you know, creating successful piece of abstract art is. Yeah, it's easy, it's easy to identify after it's been done, but it's not easy to create. Yeah, it's very hard. Let's back up a second. So what what interested you the most about digital and what kept you in that mode for quite a while? Um, there were certain things that are very kind of labor intensive. When you with painting, I like to kind of make a mess on the paper so that it really like sometimes I'll just like crumpled the piece of paper and like stomp on it and just give it as much texture as I want, and a lot of times I use like a razorblade or a sharp pen to mark up the surface and with the digital aspect of it you can get this really rich color and you can get this easier texture like that. That the ability to make texture is much less labor intensive. And I last time I spoke with you it talked about me having really bad arthritis, so that was very, very helpful. That's interesting. That's a really good point too, because a lot of people who listen to or find a podcast on mental health might have other disabilities, such as mobility issues. So that brings up a good point digital art. Had really thought of it in that sense, because sometimes I'm narrow minded. But digital art is good for people with mobility problems, especially in the risk right. Yeah, it's what it's very good. What did you use to create? So people who hear this later, I mean like we see like five people right here, but there would be five people every day for the next year listening to this. So, but type of product did you use to create your digital art? procreate and on the IPAD and a digital like a pat you know, it's like a pen. Yeah, it's it really is gratifying to see this really rich dark color come alive in a way that you can't accomplish quite as easily with traditional materials. Yeah, yeah, and I think it's both the ease and into it adness right, because they've done a really good job with a lot of software making the intuitiveness really high, so when you thinking of something, somehow the software knows what you want to do and helps you do that. In the analog world, you know, if you think you have an idea, it's hard to make paint react the way you want paint to react and a texture and all the different things, which goes to your point earlier about how much effort you, like physical effort, you used to put into creating textures and things like that. Yeah, yeah, they've done an amazing job. Honestly, I I had no idea what it was going to be like and what I would when I found people's artwork that I liked and I could tell that it was digital, I would always ask people what app they were using and it seemed like everybody was using procreate. So I thought, you know what people are making the kind of artwork that I like with this APP, I'm going to try it, and it was. It was amazing. One of the things that I kind of miss and I could still do with digital, but not quite as as easily as in real life materials. is get like this complete random texture pattern whatever by just throwing paint on a piece of paper right and letting the paint do what it wants to do. It's not quite as easy to do with the digital but it's easier than I thought it would be. Yeah, because you brought that up the last time. We talked about letting the paint do what it wants to do and the different yeah, crillics and oils and things like that. So I think that's kind of profound that and wonder how long like, for example, this would be cool.

So, so you have a IPAD, right, and imagine if there was, because the IPAD has gyroscopes and Shit inside. So imagine if you could paint with thicker or wet or paint and then tip the ipad vertically and the paint will start to droop down the page. Oh my God, that's awesome. Get on that adobe or it's Getna. It'll, it'll happen, it'll happen, and you know what that's that's exactly what I need. Yeah, it is better. You take your just drop a bunch of blob of fake digital paint onto an hive pad and then put it on it like a clay wheeled, spin it and it would literally splatter your digital paint outward. That technology totally exists and I would love to see that kind of realism that. So is that? Why? Is that why you went back to let's call it organic are Um? There's a couple reasons. Number One, my hands just had this this desire to kind of like scrape the paint on to the paper or use, you know, like a credit card to move this, something like that to move the paint. I physically had this need to do that. But I also needed it would I described it before, is kind of like a dance between the material and my my hand or my body, and so I just had that kind of longing for the material to tell me what it wanted to do in a way that I couldn't do it with the digital. So I really needed that interaction that I wasn't able to get with the digital. That's interesting if you think digital will get there in our usable lifetime. Yeah, yeah, I it. It filled that void pretty well for a pretty decent amount of time and I will definitely be using it regularly. I there's a couple other ways that it really fills that void for me is that what I've been doing is taking pictures of the pieces that I've currently made in real life and then digitally enhancing it, and the combination of the two is really spectacular and it's something that I can't can't achieve with art materials itself. So it within it, within that, within the realm of kind of editing and improving upon what I've already created. The possibilities with that or endless and and that's really it's the joy of doing that is is intense, being able to, you know, brighten my colors and make more texture on top of the physical painting that I've already made, and it's just it's really gratifying. I'm happy that I took that that I was open enough to take that journey, because I know a lot of us traditional artists kind of can be a snob when it comes to this new technology and I I'm glad that I gave myself the opportunity to try something new because it is going to make me a better artist and it already yes and it already has made me a better artist. I think. Well, yeah, it's definitely broadened your horizons a lot of times, regardless of be art I think technology has the same effect. Having been a drummer for so long, for most of my life, drums are wooden. They're made of wood and metal. That's it. And the idea that we switched to a let to drums, for example, and compete with drum machines, most drummers should like. No, no, they just became anti, anti anything digital, and I've found that no, digital drums are actually a lot of fun too, but it doesn't mean I don't still appreciate and like the first ones or prefer the electric ones. But yeah, there's definitely if you do it right and just going with the big sense of curiosity, I think it's great because then you can really adapt it to the way you want to and really expand your artwork instead of just, you know, you don't have to stand this lane or that lane. Yeah, it's another it's another tool. It's another tool to make you a better artist. That's the way I look at it. Yeah, and would like you talked about the layer in there. We you take your organic artwork or photography of things like that. And then morph them into a wholly different digital creation. With that core material. It's very much the same way of me dropping down a syncopated rhythm on a drum machine and then going solo organic drums on top of that. They both fit together, like how would they not fit together? Yeah, so I appreciate that you take that that forward.

Look, you and I are both generation x, so you know, there's people definitely older than us, but a lot of people our age seem to have kind of getting gotten stuck in the I'm not. I'm not getting to the technology kind of mindset that people who are proud of not having social media accounts and those type of folks. So I appreciate you for sticking in there and keeping up with a technology on that aspect of it. Yeah, it's it's good to keep our minds open and keep moving with the rest of the world and try to keep up with it as much as we can. You know, yeah, we didn't talk about this the last time, but the subjects kind of crossed my desk a couple of times in the past week. And that's the difference between a hobby and a profession. So you create professional level art, but I've never really asked you if you considered yourself a hobbyist or professional artist or somewhere between. I it has to be somewhere in between, probably because, like a I think that in a profession it really has to be a daily grind and it has to be a consistent grind. That's kind of the that's one of the reasons why I can't work anymore is because my my work is inconsistent in terms of the quality of it and whether or not I would go to work right just one of the reasons why why working just didn't work for me as a person with a mood disorder. So I forgot that makes sense for me, I felt. Asked me, if we're talking about hobby versus, whether they consider what it is. So definitely there's cost involved and there's lots of effort involved and skill involved and in some cases, especially with people with mental illnesses, there's the whole if I work too much, then I don't get any benefits problem, which I'm setting aside. It's just the philosophical conversation more about the effort that you put into a hobby and the reward you get for that effort. Yea, yeah, because you're not. They're grinding for money. Right. You're not. While you do and you could make money, your primary goal is not to grind out artwork simply to make money. It sounds like to me that your primary goal with art is the vocation of art, just creating. And Yeah, I don't. I mean I I know that. We say, why do you make our and and you know the dance. The answer is different for everybody, but the true answer is that I just life just isn't to me. Life just isn't worth living without ourt and and and art is. To me, art is everything, like, it's not, it's it's not just painting on a canvas or on a piece of paper. It's, you know, it's the color that we paint our cars and our houses and the flowers that basically entertain our brains and our eyes and our senses. So I agree. Yeah, und so for me, life just doesn't work living without art and I I don't feel alive if I don't have some way to consume hurt and create our because I'm not, I'm not in a vacuum when it comes to creating. I want to look at other people's artwork, I find inspiration, I find you know, it's just it just like just it's not worth living without being able to consume it, but also, for me, it's not worth living without being able to create it. Right. Yeah, do you feel like you get stuffed up and angry if you have no way to expel your art from yourself? Yeah, yeah, I, you know, I I describe it as being constipated, just like if you can. Yeah, I was gonna use that word. Yeah, thank if. Yeah, like if you if you feel like you can't create, it's this, it's that feeling. It's that and it's a desperate feeling. It's horrible when you want to make something deeply but you can't. And that's that's where that that's where that dance with the material comes in. I, because I work intuitively, I can get inspiration by throwing that paint on. It's my front. Eric was describing it as you know, looking at the clouds, were looking at marble and you your look at it and you're like, Oh, I see a dog there. And so sometimes I can't decide what to paint. The paint has to decide for me and I just have to kind of like find it, you know, like that's what that's what the beauty is of throwing...

...the materials on the paper, on the canvass. When you allow it to just kind of have a mind of its own, you can find your inspiration within it. That I oftentimes can't. I can't create the inspiration. I have to find the inspiration. Yeah, yeah, the same. I invented a game with my kids. I don't know, other people probably did it too. It's that super complicated. But the game was the four of us would sit around and the first one would draw a scribble, any scribble, on a big piece of paper, like a you know, posterboard paper, and the next person had to turn that scribble into something that the rest of us could understand what the hell it was, and then the next person would go the circle. So, yeah, that was the inspiration was each of us would draw a scribble and it was part of a weird competition thing because each the next person was determined to make something out of that scribble, you know. So that's always a great thing, finding inspiration in the weirdest places. Included other people scribbles. Yeah, you know what, I I live across the street. I live in Chicago and all that. I live across the street from a starbucks and several years ago, when I was getting really, really serious about my artwork, I would go to starbucks and I would ask the employees to scribble something on piece of paper and then I would make a piece of artwork out of it. And that's that's exactly what finding that kind and a gem inside the marble is is. It's it's it's just me paying attention to the material and seeing what the material wants me to do with it. Yeah, so, yeah, love points. It's interesting because I'm curious how you think the end resulting, since the material kind of dictates the art in a sense that we're talking about now. How do you feel your digital art is different from your organic art? Um? I don't know. I have to think about that. I yeah, have to think of it. No, it's not really a trick question, but I can't know. I know self. You know, because like in one medium it's basically a stylus and a piece of glass. So there's not a lot of variety there except that through your brain, in your mind is interpreting through your eyes, which is a huge variety right. But then in the organic world everything is really slowed down a lot. You could do everything that's possible right in front of your fingertips. And you know, you mix purple and red and you get a different Magenta type of thing. So, yeah, it's always interesting to me like what the what the medium is dictating, especially when we simplify the medium to just a stylus and glass. Yeah, yeah, I think that one of the main differences is just the ability to interact with the materia. Ah, there's not. The glass in the style is doesn't give you as much to work with as, as you know, the paint does, because when once you get the paint there, you can put your finger in there and you know, swirl it around, you can put a razor blade in there, are pain in there or pencil in there and you know move it around in ways that you can't do digitally. But again, yeah, it did. But again, digitally I feel has made me a better artist because he gives me the ability, the ability to do things I can't do, you know, with real with real materials. Yeah, yeah, our finger tips are really sensitive and it's really bad for them to to embulate what we do with paint, for example, things like that. But it I see a day in the next ten or fifteen years easily. We're like we talked about it. IPAD that you could tip on its side and the paint will start to drip to the side that same IPAD. You could flip a switch, you know, obviously a digital switch on your screen, to say I want this to feel like sand paper or Burlap, and the haptic technology, the vibrational things that make you feel like there's an actual button under your home button on your iphone, that kind of technology will make you feel like, oh, that's scratchy now, like my stylus is having a hard time bumping over these scratchy paper and I think that that will come a long way soon. Not I mean, I love technology, but I'm not involved in it, so please hurry up at the tech. No, you know what that's when you when you said having a difficult like that, the style is having a difficulture or the pen or whatever, having difficulty moving over the surface. As soon as you said that, my brain was like Ding, Ding, Ding, Ding Ding. You know, it was like that's so gratifying, you know, because you're you're you're being limited or you're letting the you're allowing the limitation of the material to limit you. Basically, yeah, I...

...said, I'm so glad you you you have that analogy. I think a bit along because of the drum thing. And you know, first we had real regular drums and the first thing that came out of that was a Synth, not a not an electric drum set, which is the synthesize. It sounded like drums. Yeah, it went from one end of the far other and then finally we settle on the in between. And I think it'll be the same with digital technology for other artists as well. Like you'll go from one end to the far extreme of glass and stylus right now, but soon that whole thing will just feel like any substrate you want it to feel like. You'll probably feel hot and cold, like when you touch paint, wet paint, it's a different temperature. They have the technology to make our screens do that. It's just super expensive right now. So I think the future of technology for artist is is huge and it's going to be great. If we'll see it, I think we'll see it, but who knows what the future after that hold. Yeah, we'll see it towards like. I mean your what four, fifty five? I'm fifty. So we'll start seeing it in the next decade. But you know, people that are are millennials and people that haven't been born yet, that's going to be second nature for them. Oh yeah, and it'll be augmented reality, virtual reality. All with this hap to technology, like being ready player one that movie where they bore the suits, to have to technology suits that already exists. So the idea that everybody will have these in the futures not super far off. Yeah, everybody will have at least some kind of haptic Glob or are goggles to like expect walls of their home or whatever. But beyond that, just think of the applications for artist, it's just admits, I love. Yeah, it is and would like what you were describing with drums. It's just another it's just another tool to enhance your creativity. Yeah, to kind of bridge the gap from what you loved about the organic world but with the expanded potential of the digital world. Yeah, yeah, so what's up are you? Are you selling things? We won't talk about money specifically, but are you moving enough art to keep you motivated to keep selling art? As NFT's Um, I have this evil little this evil little monster on my shoulder that likes the validation of sales. I'm in a lucky position where I don't have to make money as an nft artist in order to survive, right, and that would be really devastating if I did, because I I think I'm I think my art is good enough, but I just can't figure out how to navigate, like life in general, when it comes to like, when it comes to like being a quote unquote success. So this is how my sales have come about. My sale sales have all been the direct result of a relationship that I built with somebody. I I'm not, at this point, the lucky artist who can put stuff out there and people just buy it, and I think that's because of my inability to be focused and consistent. I feel kind of like if I'm out there, people see me, but when I'm not out there I disappear, whereas there's some artists like my friend Nai and here, who he doesn't have to interact with the public. He he can disappear and his his work still is being seen. And so I have that frustration. I've so so basically, the essence of it is that any sales that I've gotten are based on relationships that I felt with people but which is one? One? Yeah, yeah, so, but it's a lot more time consuming, I guess. Yeah, that that not that this time not will spent. It's time will spent the course, probably better spent, but you're not amassing tens of thousands of sales because you are our way, not just your way. Because I'm the same way. My work product is inconsistent because of both my bipolar and my adhd. I get that, and no matter how much you can explain that to an employer or an nft market or anything,...

...they won't care the moment you start disappearing or, you know, fading from their view or just in the constant stream daily yeah, it feels like you just get left out. So I think that is something everybody, you know, whether you have a mental illness or not, just really has to be careful of that. It is really a full time job and if you already have a fulltime job, you have to just consider that you now have to so to your point, though, we I think I brought this up on another podcast. Guessed was. That's why I think it's kind of cool thing for people that might have mental illnesses to the point where they get disability, because you don't have to make a lot of money, but you can make money. You don't have to cash it out, you could just leave it in the crypto world. All of those things are great options if you're able to eat and have a roof over your head already. And I think that's that's really cool that you both acknowledged and appreciated that. So, yeah, thank you. Yeah, it's and and I'm so emotionally attached to that, to that validation, so much so that it when I'm not healthy, when I'm depressed, I can't. That's that's when I need to remove myself the most, because that's when I become most invested in that validation. And and the lack of that validation is is it's devastating and dangerous. So I've had to really, I have to really really monitor myself and step away when I start feeling like nobody sees me. Why doesn't anybody see me? I'm invisible because I know, because I know I'm a good artist, in my eye, in my art, in my mind, I'm a good artist. I love the artwork I make. I don't feel inferior. But man, not feeling seen will will bring you to places you just don't want to go, and so I have to be really, really careful. Yeah, but for sure, because a lot of times, especially with artists, being an artist is a huge part of our personal identity. It's more of our identity than our family, the way we look or anything else. It's the fact that we are creatives and if that seems to be stripped from us, it's like part of your identity has been stripped from you and you can go flailing off into the ether pretty quick without an idea. Yea. So I think that's really smart and insightful that you're able to detect that on yourself and, like, you know, be guarded, guarded against that happening. Yeah, I'm not always successful, but I've gotten better and better at it and and to be perfectly honest with you, I mean twitter spaces have have changed my life. I have learned how to interact with people that I wasn't able to interact with in real life. I think the fact that we're a great big world and we're able to find one another like people in these spaces it really fills those those voids that you couldn't find in real life. I mean, you know, I live in Chicago, it's a huge city, there's a lot of people, but I can't find the same people in real life that I've found on on twitter spaces. So I've learned to feel comfortable in my own skin by interacting with people on twitter spaces. And and I will and I will continue to say that if I stopped making artwork or stopped trying to sell my artwork, I would still come into spaces because it's filled it's filled a void for me. It's given me that that feeling that I had when I was in college where you like, you know, class was done three hours ago and you're sitting in the hallway on the floor with your friends talking, you know, talking about life and yeah, it's your hope that it's Huh, you are hardcore. There's no way I would be out way off the campus like see you, we're going to the lake, we're getting high. Well, here's the thing. Here's the thing. When I was in school, see, initially I was a sculptor, because I don't we probably talked about this, yeah, we did. I lack technical skills and it was always frustrating and in a source of shame for me until I until I discovered like art brute and outsider art, and so I really was into sculpture and I my class would be done and I would be in the classroom by...

...myself, like welding, or I mean welding, but with my teacher nearby and I right across the hall, because obviously that could be very dangerous. But I would I would after class was over, or I was in the studio making artwork until the student the school closed, until I was forced to leave. What grade you and what how about? How old were you? Well, that was pre s so it was probably like lateen so I graduated high school when I was seventeen. I was a little bit younger than most I graduated. You know, I was in the class where I was a little bit younger than I should have been, and that was the other thing. I don't know how I got away with this, but when I was in high school, I would leave some of my classes like to say I had to go to the bathroom, and I would go to my art class where like there would be no class at that at that particular time. And I don't know how I got away with it on both ends, with the teacher, that was my art teacher, allowing me to allowing me to stay there and and play around with the clay and the teacher. That was that. That was teaching the class that I was actually disappearing from, but I would I would disappear from class and I would go to the art studio and I would just make artwork and that sounds like a blast. So what kind of kid were you in school like? What was your favorite sort of bands? What were you a geek or a job or a stoner or like John to any clift? I was heavy into punk rock. Hell, yeah, Susie and the bandshoes, I was absolutely obsessed with and then I got into like heavy metal, like Metallica. But the thing is is my taste and music is really, really vast. I absolutely love classical music, I love dance music, I love Salsa. In fact, my my within the last maybe sixsh months I've had, I've had the ability more and more, and now that my medication is changing, to make the decision to distract my brain before it before you know, I generally wake up depressed and what I'm doing now is saying, okay, I'm depressed, how can I change this? And I put on Salsa and it makes me so fucking happy and it's it's making that decision for myself. Is Really, really. Basically, what it does is it allows my brain to it inner. It interferes with what's naturally going on in my brain and replaces it with something healthy. Yeah, agree, that's so huge too, because music, it's a powerful motivator, for better or for worse. Yeah, and if you're sitting there listening to your funeral song playlist, yeah, you probably going to be sad and you probably going to send yourself into a downward spiral. And it is as simple sometimes a switching over to a more upbeat song. I can't believe it. It's really is Hogwash, bullshit, but it works for me a lot. I have some really crazy upbeat I'll share some songs with you later, like entire playlists like wow, I feel like I'm in a s car, commercial kind of songs, you know, just loves roaming through life, like the Jetson's just interesting classical music, or like this resurgence of jazz music after the Vietnam War, like cool jazz stuff like that, really interesting, nice and I think maybe it came from us both being because I was like punk rock and then metal and then once you're in the metal, you're in the music music, you're in the musical music. So it kind of opens the door to all of the rest of it, for sure. Yeah, so I'm a big fan of music and I also have to be very I also have to be very careful with music because if I I can listen to classical music and it will, it will put me into a deep depression, because I don't really know how to explain it, except that I feel like with music, I feel like the human body becomes like an onion and like certain music can like penetrate every single layer of that onion all the way to the very, very very core. And then's what classical music does to me it and so I had to be very, very careful with classical music because it could it just brings out this it just puts me so deep into my body that I...

...can't get out of it. So I hope that be really so I had to be really careful with classical music. Yeah, yeah, I have a playlist, I think it's curated by apple, called melancholy strings, all the old great classic you know, Mozart and all the folks, but also their most all just their most melancholy bit and like wow, this is depressing. Yeah, it's pretty wild. Yeah, there's just something about a classical music that to me, I don't know, it's it penetrates the body in a different way than all the other music does. and and like heavy metal penetrates the body in a different way than than any other music does. So I think it just, you know, it's it. Every type of music kind of it has a place inside of your body. That's it's just like people, like I was telling my friend yesterday that my friendships are like. For me, I feel like I'm like a clothing dresser and the friends that fit into one drawer wouldn't fit into another drawer and like like the like like the same people. The same people wouldn't fit in the same drawer together. Right, right, and I just see you organized it dif friends and no, no, don't put them, they don't go there, over there, upl the right there. Yeah, I mean my friends are really so, so different from one another that they they have to be compartmentalized. But I always but I always say if I were forced onto a desert island, every single one of those people I would want. And I don't have a lot of friends, which, you know, could be a good it could be bad whatever. Well, twitter has kind of filled that space for me. But if I were forced on to a desert island for the rest of my life, all of my friends I would choose to have on that island. They may not interact very well together, but I would still want and write those people. Would still want. Which one of those people on that island? If ivited all friends to the island, there would be a war and then eventually they'd all realize I was to blame because I was the common denominator. That's the ASSHOLE, the broadest here kill erm I sokay, yeah, I really don't think my friend. I really don't think that my friends would get along with one another because they're so different. But aren't by all. My friends are cordial, of course. My friend just have such vastly different taste that a lot of them would think things that my other friends into are just stupid or lame and I want I get it whatever, and I wonder what that says about us. Does that mean that we're like more complicated and we have more drawers than other people? I don't know, or maybe more judge and more anxious about that kind of stuff, because it would probably be fine. They probably all get it flung together and they might even be closer friends with each other then with me. Maybe that's the big fear overall. I don't want them talking to each other because in the breakup with me. Yeah, well, I don't think that would happen with my friends, but that's definitely a legitimate concern of mine in real life. Like, like what I I'm a jealous friend, like I want to know that you're my best friend, because if I'm not, like I'm devastated. You gotta be like one or two on the speed dial, please. And it's not like it's not like a arrogant thing. It's it's like the opposite. It's like I want, I you know, I'm used to being unimportant in life. I'm used to being unimportant, unimportant to my mom and being a nuisance that I want, I want. Yeah, you kind of need that confirmation that I am important, am I? Yeah, okay, yeah, because I wasn't important to the people that I should be the most important too. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I get that. What what are you doing moving forward? So, like what's coming up next to you? I mean you're an artist. I doubt you like plan out these great projects, but do you have anything in mind that you like to try out next with regards to your art the have you ever thought about getting into like digital sculpting, like D or anything like that? I think that at this particular moment it might be a little too complicated for my brain. YEA, at this moment. You know, maybe it won't be at some point, but yeah, what I right now? I really need to get my hands into some paint again, and...

...so my future, my future goal is to really really delve heavy into pure abstraction, like my like my profile pick right now is, for the most part, pretty pure abstract. There's some identofile opt identifiable objects and they're like houses. But that's really my future focus at this particular moment. Is Anna also photography, I. I. I've been really trying to figure out what what photography means to me and how it fits into my world, and I've kind of figured it out that. See, photography is it the the act of going out and trying to find your picture. It it's again, it slows my brain down and it lets me to focus on something outside of my brain. So it's like. For me, artwork is like creating. It's like taking my head off and throwing across the room, and that's that's why I I'm not a I love conceptual art and and I wish that I had the build, the ability to say, okay, I'm gonna, you know, I'm going to make this piece of artwork today and I want this to be the message. I can't do that because if I do that, I get lost inside my head and and then I start to become manic, and so I have to keep myself outside of my brain because it becomes a dangers place. Yeah, yeah, so that right. You have to keep yourself separate from the mind, that is controlling yourself. Yeah, yeah, totally. So photography is something I really kind of want to start. I have a huge body of of work that I I'm going to start listing at some point. I do have one small collection out right now. It's I think it's like seven pieces, and it's it's of photograph. I usually find that I don't I don't want to take a picture of the forest, I want to take a picture of the little things that I find inside the forest. Like to me, that's like the hunting that I like is finding the little details. Yeah, and so that's the act of doing that is really is really gratifying, and so I kind of want to start figuring out how to put my previous photography out there, while having a future goal of learning how to actually use my camera so that, yes, that can actually because, you know, as good as iphones are, there's a lot that you can't do with it. And so I that's a future goal, is to do more with my photography. That's awesome. I look forward to that. I was interested in what you just said about making pure abstract. Where does your mind go when you were trying to paint or painting abstract? It goes to this material and it stays out of it stays outside of the brain. Like that, I'm truly able to just separate myself from my brain when I make, when I when I do pure abstract, because I don't have to worry about the message, I don't have to worry about, Oh, you know, this this I that I'm drawing really looks like shit or it removes myself from any kind of thought process and it allows me to simply look at the material and and dance with it. You know, it's yeah, like I allow the dance, I allow the my partner, to be the leader, because if I try to be the lead, if I try to be the lead dancer, I get too stuck inside my brain and then that's where the danger happens. Well, I'm glad youing to glad you ask that, because I really hadn't. I had really hadn't thought about that. Well, and I think about that too, now that we're talking about when I try to paint something abstract, I am, you know, like ecart totally. I'm trying to be now, living the now, in the moment, right, and so of course the texture of the canvas, the feel of the paint, the way it's squishing past the Spatula, I love it. I love all of that. But I have this weird desire, after I've painted something, to try to identify what the Fuck I just painted. So people come over like, Oh, what is it? And I feel compellable, like it's a it's a coy feel ish. I mean it, but it's not...

...a cause. I don't no idea what is just just a Blob of pain that smeared rind and it just weird to try to have to I guess defend my art as as at this what is it? What is it? I'm like, I don't know. It's just not my answer to that is, who gives a shit what it is? That's my answer to that. Yeah, I want and you could get all like a poetic like it is what you think it is and all of it, but it I just don't like the feeling inside of me, like why do I have a feeling inside of me that I have to explain what it is? I don't have that feeling. I have that feeling when I'm around people that don't appreciate art. Because so here's an example when, about thirteen ish years ago, I I've always focused on trading cards. So those are two and a half by three and a half pieces of artwork. Yeah, and I was doing some Xerox has on a color copier of my artwork and the lady that worked there asked me if I was a teacher because she thought that I was like a like a kinderschool, a kinderk garden type, you know, like young kids, and a part of me was embarrassed because I knew that she didn't see the beauty of shed and see the beauty of art. The same way that I did and that it doesn't have to be drawn perfectly right. So that's when I do get that. That's when I do get that way where I feel like I have to explain myself. But when I'm but when I'm with people who truly appreciate art, I allow my art to be whatever the hell it is, okay, and whatever they want it to be. You know. Yeah, I'm with that. I'm totally okay with that. Like if you see, if if I see a horse and you see an alien, I'm like hey, that's cool. Now I have a whole nother way of looking at this. Yeah, yeah, exactly, and I think that you're bringing it up in this kind of friendwork. I think my issue with having the feeling that I have to explain myself my quote unquote art is that a lot of my life I've worked as a designer, as a graphic designer, so I literally had to explain my design decision. But but with art it's totally different. I think a lot of times people can plate artists with designers and yeah, same, they can't be the same. You can definitely be both, but the act of design to me is you're created artwork with the purpose intended with, with true art, you create an art for the sake of the creation itself. Yeah, Yeah, interesting. Well, let's we know everybody here, but let's take it open for some questions and you guys make up some questions, because I want to see how this works for the podcast, because I want to see how it comes across after we the recording is finished. All right. So, Angie, make up a question and turn on your bike and ask a question and just probably outside getting the Sun Tan with the dogs and just left us on US Sun Tan Jesus and yeah, something out there. There's no sun in Chicago. Man, that's funny. I was in the other room, though. Will give me a moment. That's cool. I love that. And Eric, Eric, I need you to come up with a question. I hope he's listening. And then not like in the in me and the backdrop somewhere. That's where I think a lot of people do. But yeah, Chris. So, Chris is a Podcaster I've interviewed on my show before and I think he's both supportive but what we do here also probably learning about podcasting, just like me. So anyway, yeah, this is cool. I like the way it's turning out. I hope the audio sounds listenable, because it sounds good from here, doesn't it? Yeah, definitely cool. PLUS HELP IT trends. I hope it translates well to to to podcast land. Well, it's a great conversation and those always do. And my thought being that if the audio quality is suitable, then people will listen to the podcast and might be inclined to come back and start a twitter your account where they did not have one earlier, and then they could join us and hang out and like like you and a lot of people, the first time public speaking or podcasting is through connections made by twitter, and these kind of connections change people's Perspective on things quite a bit. Once you're confident knowing that Oh, I could speak up, I can, I can speak for myself in public. I think it makes a big difference. Yeah, and and and being able to both. Okay, so you support me and I support you because if I say hey, listen to this...

...episode, you know it's it's a it's a great tool for me and it's great toolfull you, for you. You know. Yeah, I love that. I Love I love being able to have that kind of CO comusual like helping each other out. You know. Yes, it's kind of like emotional network without being to market. Yeah, advertise you about it. Yeah, yeah, I think that's important. Angie n Ike had that same kind of work ethic from when we work with I don't know if you knew, but Angie and I met in San Francisco when she used to book punk rock bands and I was in one of the punk rock bands. That's how we might yeah, yeah, and now we're but we both live in Oklahoma City and go take pictures of the sunset and try to make anypteas and shit like that. Yes, small world, that's so funny. I have a question, Yay, so I'm curious if there's a color that you have an aversion to, like any color or any number of colors that you have an aversion to that you don't like to use in your artwork. She has an adversion to my question, a version of the questions about colors. Sorry, guys, my my along with my knee, leaving my my husband is from Morocco and he flew out with her and he's going to be visiting his parents and I've been waiting for him to call me. So that's what that was all about, and I said, listen, I'm I'm doing space right now. Can you call me to time? As I knows, I know he's okay. That's what's important. Yeah, yeah, for sure. You've got quite the international flare going. I know, I know, I know. I love that. That's awesome. It's back to the ADHD. We love the vanity. Chris laughed, I'm sure. Yeah, Chris is the Chris does tubs a podcast, though. Cool, so he's probably a using our ideas. He's a good guy. I just had a he was on the podcast the other day. But anyhow, I got to wrap up to have another podcast coming up in half an hour. That I'm okay for, and this sounded great. I know you like to stay on spaces forever. I don't know how we could switch this or the three of you want to up on your own space, but I really appreciate you hang it out. Eric. Thanks for sticking out the whole time. I'm not a I'm more of a podcaster than a spaces person, so I don't go for eight hours like Marcie does, like a job. That's probably what Burns you out, Marcie, doing spaces for eight hours. You know what I've only done. I've only I did one space for like fuck, I don't even know how long, and then like five. It was a long yeah, but I yeah, I'm trying to find figure out what my next steps are and but no, I do go in and out of spaces a lot. Yeah, but yeah, it's definitely right now, like what my kind of getting my feet back in there, but I do have and I am trying to figure out what to do here. So well, you're doing so far, so good. Thanks. I like this format pretty good now that I figured out how to make it sound okay and work the buttons kind of. So if y'all want to try this again on another day, I'm happy to host. You are and Angie, whenever you and whenever you want to. I'm happy with it because I just I know you don't like compliments, but it's you're extremely talented host. No, I'm serious and that and anyway, so when you are, when you are up for doing there I and now back to the wall.

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