Live from Emo Dojo
Live from Emo Dojo

Episode · 2 weeks ago

NFT Artist EpicThunderCat: Live from Emo Dojo

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

John welcomes EpicThunderCat, a rising NFT artist with deep ties to both the art community and mental health outreach. As an artist and licensed mental health worker, her new project "Monsters of Mind" aims to spread mental health awareness through digital artwork, more commonly known as NFTs.

The discussion is wide-ranging and covers a lot of interesting topics, including ...

  • DSM and the inherent corporate bias of psych labels
  • Wrong meds; unmet expectations
  • Pill shaming and stigma
  • Diversity in the NFT space
  • Difficulties in on-boarding new artists
  • The Fear of Change
  • The Fear of Financial Freedom
  • Narcissism in Society
  • Epicthundercat’s Origins Story
  • The Art Process
  • Opensea and Objkt
  • Companies have roadmaps; artists have vision maps
  • The Monsters of Mind Collection
  • Shoutout: Conrad at Outcastverse
  • Diversity in NFTs; hiding behind your PFP
  • Shoutout: Guttercat Gang
  • Getting Over The Hump
  • Give it at least 12 months
  • Epicthundercat breaks through social anxiety and fear of speaking!

Cover art for this episode is a cropped portion of EpicThunderCat's "Love - 13" trading at .35 ETH when this podcast was uploaded. Learn more at EpicThunderCat.com Follow @johnemotions on Twitter

All right welcome back, I'm John andyou've stepped into the EMO Dojo. Thanks for showing up today, we've gota fantastic show, you're going to love it regardless. If you came from the art,the technology or the mental health background, this episode is for you soa little context first and we're going to jump right into it. My guest nametoday is epic thunder cat sounds kind of odd, but when he realized she is aartist in the FT space and in the FT space everyone uses pseudonyms. Youknow, pen names stage names, what not very common, not as weird as it soundsat all, and what you're about to hear is effectively the entire conversationwe recorded, live at Emo Dojo, what's really cool about it is that she and Iboth have adhd. So there is not a dull moment in this entire podcast so grabsome water, buckling your seat belts and get ready, because we've got a good,solid hour of epic thunder cat here in the EMO Dojo there's, so many come morvid diagnosesout there, so isn't it wild held everything is so gonone, like all ofthe diagnosis, seems to be going to connect the more botany one of them.Yeah. I've actually thought that they need to change the DSM to have spectrumized mental illnesses rather than just blatant. This is the diagnosis, andthese are the symptoms, because really the insurance companies are who wrotethat to begin with, and it's not very human centered and it's not veryaccurate for a lot of people who are like in the middle of different labels.Yeah, that's actually a really good point. I didn't think about that whoactually wrote like the DSM labels and to your point. It had to have been someindustry, the industry, that you know benefits from labeling things. So yeah,that's a AH. It was the insurance companies. That's why they have all thenumbers when you go into like the doctors or whatever, and they have likethe number codes, if not like a mental health crisis or whatever it wastotally the insurance companies. So there's an interesting argument in thepsychology field in itself about whether people should be using the DSMas much as they are or whether they should be more human centered, with theway that they diagnose individuals. So I'm on the human centered spectre, Iprefer to talk to people first before just immediately subjecting them to apermanent label. So Oh my gosh yeah and it's such a double edged sword to beginwith, for example, I didn't know what was wrong with me when I first ran offto the hospital and got diagnosed with something so when they first diagnosedme with something I was both happy and relieved, I'm like Oh good,I'm not just a fucking asshole. I have something right. I just have somethinglike now. I can go tell all my friends and family and coworkers that I justhave bipolar disorder and that didn't work out so well either. They're, likeYep you're, an asshole who has a bipolar disorder, great and like fuckso anyway, so some people can be both yeah yeah pand for sure, because ittakes a while well and then it turns out later that I got diagnosed withsomething else. There's a list of like. Oh, you know about cod morbidity, solater became straight depression and Adhd, which I had had for most of mylife. So it wasn't manic, it was hyperactivity. Those type of things mayget mixed up. Did they initially try putting you on medication for bipolardisorder? And that was like totally? U All of them like it. Well, it wasn'tawful like the medication didn't have a horrendous side effects awful. It wasawful in that we expected it to work and nothing worked. It was awful likethat. Yeah so yeah all the antipsychotics and everything triedthem all went down the list, even the most recent ones, like Simbalda up toabout three years ago, when we finally looked at my old, like childhoodrecords after I talked to my mom, who had you know not been talking but foundout, oh yeah, I might have been both artistic and a total spous as a kid,which is something I could have used in my adult journey to my own sanity, soyeah, I got off the bipolar mids because I'm not sure that that'saccurate, see. That's the other concern I have to. Is that often times a willover medicate- and I am- I am totally pro medication and I am really againstpill shaming, because that is a common problem which is living to a lot of thenegative stigma in our culture. People don't want to take meds and then theirsymptoms get worse. You know they don't want to deal with the stigma behind themedication itself, but they also over prescribe and it scares people and theyneed. Second, you know they need, like a second opinion, a lot of the times inthese places to really understand or they'll, diagnose someone after meetingthem one time and be like oh well. I don't know, but you match these so hereyou go. Here's a pill and really people need more follow up than that. A lot ofthe time, oh yeah, so much so much, and that is the thing and I don't reallyblame the Doctorss I've seen you know...

...by the time you have that kind of amental problem of disorder, illness. Whatever a lot of people, I know end upbroke, so you end up going to the hospitals with the most burden. Theyhave the lowest paid staff with the highest case, load and they're. Doingyes right, so they just want to ease the suffering at the moment. Clearly,you're having a moment, here's some you know, tranquillizer, go settle down.Take some limit Dole, go see a doctor in a week that kind of thing. So Iguess it's just to each individual. If you accept the label that they justgave you and you're going to go with it well, you might get stuck on the wrongpath for a couple of years, so yeah second and third opinion always, andyou had definitely big time on the pill. Shaming. That's that's really rough. Iwas never really pill shamed because I was in a culture that was the least oftheir problems. They were doing cocaine and you know all right all the harderdrugs than that. Even so like we, let's that to yeah, go ahead. That fatfascinates me too, because there's a lot of people that will take drugsrecreationally instead of taking the medication, the doctors give for somereason. They view it is safer in a different way because, like it's been experimented on so muchor something I don't know like it, self medicating as a whole, rent, yeah yeahand it's so risky nowadays. I didn't really think about it, as I was younger,but now when I think that you could just be putting anything in your bodyliterally and you could just die at any moment, it's so weird it is- and you know there so beforeright now. I work for the government as a vocational rehabilitation counselor.But before I worked in just privatized, metal, health- and let me just say itis a mess- the whole system I mean I'm over here in Oregon, and I don't knowabout other states, but I know over here it is such a mess. There is justnot enough looking into what's going on in a lotof the facilities along with just so many horror stories, people do havetheir meds and there's no support staff. There's the like. You were saying,they're very underpaid, which increases all of the trauma,because then you have staff that aren't trained properly to deal with thediagnosis and the symptom sets that are going on and it is so chaotic. Ibelieve you yet and I've been to I've lived in California for most of my life.I've lived in Louisiana and Oklahoma. Also, and you know the basically thecloser you moved to a big city if you're willing and able to dig into theroots of the you know: Civic Safety Net, you can find help in those big cities,but man the moment you get into an outskirt town or anything like thatyear. On Your Own, oh a lot of the doctors in those areas. I've come torealize. Just from my friend's experiences. I have friends that livein the middle of nowhere and move from the city and a lot of the doctors arelike the recheck doctors. You not do you mean but they're like the doctorsthat couldn't make it in the city, so they end up out there and there theydon't know what they're doing it. There's no coverage or there's just sosuch limited funding. They can't really do anything God, it's so frustrating tothat's funny. I went to continuation school when I was younger because I gotkicked out of regular school and I didn't learn until I was in collegethat the teachers at continuation school had also been kicked out of theregular high schools. Oh, like literally a co Likit like they had somesome mark on their their performance record that they're like yeah, but wecan't really fire you because of the Union. So we're going to send you thedeal with the rug rat pack is the continuation school. Is that, like thewhere the troubled kids went or whatever yeah yeah exactly? Is I okay?So my history totally graduated in these as one of those two just because yeah it was, I mean Ididn't necessarily belong there. I wasn't one of the drug addict, kids oranything, but like I went through all this trauma when I was younger becausemy grandma died and it was like a lot to take on so like I graduated withsuch a low GPA. But now I have a master's degree, so yeah and you'regiving it back. So that's what I mean we're talking a lot about mental health,which is awesome because my audience has followed me through this wholejourney and I've even changed the name of the show several times like it usedto be originally like five years ago. It was literally called by polar style,because I thought I had bipolar disorder. So as it's evolved, I justchanged the name of the show and the focus of the show, but they stickaround so they've been on this n FT journey with me for the past severalweeks. They know that I've fallen down the rabbit hole and it's fucking onright, I'm like Whoa. This is the whole on right. It's like nothing else. I'veever experienced it's, I don't know right a community and everything, maybeacid. Let me going back to the drugs, it's kind of like acid. I think as akid, but it's so mind blowing and to the point I was about to make a secondago. You are really giving back to the mental health community, so you wentthrough the trauma as a young person, and then you out your way through it.You got out of the the hell that his high school and then you decided to goback to school and Excel, but not just...

...that a thing that you didn't go becomea banker or a real estate agent, or something like that. You are back tothe mental health field, so I think that says a lot about you as a personand it also kind of reflects the way that you act in the mental hell. I meanI'm starting the FT space on twitter. I see you like reaching back a lot andall of a sudden, your work has really started to explode, so that must besuper exciting. It is, I'm really excited about it, because I'm hopingthat in this face, I can help create more equity. Just because I feel like we need morediversity in the space in general as a whole, we need just more people and I feel like I'd like to help kindof on board people. I don't really know the space very much because I feel likemy project in particular, is pretty gentle, for that the community isreally accepting everyone's really kind and empathetic, and each of mymoderators all have their own mental health lived experience, so anyone thatmight be having a problem or something it like. Let's say I don't know ifsomebody had like a trauma trigger or something yeah they're, pretty coolabout it like they wouldn't stigmatize or negatively impact somebody else likeI've tried to keep it like a really friendly atmosphere, and I've workedreally hard at that, because I feel like there's not enough of that, andthere is. There is a lot of community centered aspects in the N ft spaceoverall and it's absolutely beautiful, but I think my project is a little bit different inthe fact that I've really strived for like people that understand otherpeople. So it's it's a very comfortable community. Isn't that Nice that you'reable to kind of synchronize your life with n ftse, like the things that youalways thought you wanted to wish. I could do this and some of that but jeesI have to keep a day job to pay the rent, but now all of a sudden thingsare aligning, and it seems like people of the future are just going to leadway more aligned lives. I think so. I think the future is going to be in themetaverse. I really do. I think I mean I don't know, there's all those you knowjust hopin movies and everything and there's this part of me. I just it'sglorified in my mind, because I grew up with cyberpunk type stuff and in aMilonia totally, but I don't know I just feel like humanity is moving inthat direction at least a little bit, and I think in the future we're goingto see a lot of implementation with these entertaing to be able to be putin to video games and other things that are even more like tangible, thatpeople understand and I'm just really excited for the future of it yeah. Butit is hard to on board do people so I'm glad you're givin it youre all as wellpart of that difficulty. I've found is gettingpeople to understand and believe in you know, construct on top of construct.It's a lot like. I was telling my friend the other day. It's a lot liketrying to convince, maybe the old gold miners in the eighteen hundreds to giveme your gold and I'm going to give you this piece of paper and they're likewhat I I think. Another thing that people don't talk about enough in thespace is the psychology behind fear of change. I mean there's a huge, huge fear ofchange among, like humanity as a whole, and this is a big change. I mean we'retaking art, which was a tangible physical object and even though peopleare buying these assets and video games and things that don't have like realworld value, they're having a hard time understanding the lack of like physicalsensation, I guess with the art and the artists themselves are having to learn,there's a whole new way to market, and it's bridging with that crypto chainand they're people that maybe don't have experience with that they're juststruggling to understand and with change, also comes grief. Oddly enough, there is a hugesimilarity with change and grief the same symptoms go for both they gothrough the same symptom sets, and so it's kind of just going to be like thisprocess of people getting used to it over and over and over, and that'seventually how our society is going to have to adapt and there's going to be alot of people who are angry, they're going to go through that stage, you'regoing to become upset or sad, I mean it's just it's just part of being humanwow. That's a great point. I mean I never really thought of it that, but,but that's all that grief is, is change. It's just. It's intense immense changethat causes sadness like a usually loss, but it doesn't have to be a loss or Idon't know without getting in the weeds here, but man that's such a great wayto look at it, because I've lost some things in life that you know. Inhindsight it was just the change. It was just going to the unknown, leavingthe comfort zone and boy that that's such a valid pointwhen trying to on board New People is really being empathetic and kind to thefact that the old ways are just you know, we basically it almost seems likein telling them we're going to the metaverse. It's like telling them yourold world is dying. Please come with it. I know and imagine like some of theseartists have probably spent their entiree adult lives, maybe even part oftheir childhood. I don't know working...

...on these certain strict strategies andtactics that that work for them a little bit, maybethey're selling prints here and there maybe they're doing like a physical. Idon't know like a convention or something but they're going to have torelearn. All of that and part of the relearning is what brings on thesefeelings to having to adapt and change like the learning curve is so big, sometimesfor some of these things and yeah, especially with the metaverse I mean itis like all encompassing and eventually it's just going to be huge yeah. It'snot it's not not going, I'm whatever it's here to stay. I don't. I can'tconceive of having seen what we've seen in the past, even six months, thatanybody that can comprehend what we've seen would even think that it was goingaway. It's funny too, because I've never really thought the CRYPTO wasused for crime, any more than regular money was used for crime, so thosethose concepts that I often run into weird concepts when I try to on boardpeople into the art space and it's the resistance because Crypto to begin with,they got way back to like five steps ago, and I have a hard time backing up to address that point. But Yeah we haveto address all the points to the new folks coming in what are some of the primary argumentsthat you've heard well a lot of people. It's the right.Click save crowd, it's the that's stupid! Why are you just saving a pieceof j pig effectively and fortunately mostof the folks? I know that I have real world conversations with or from themusic industry, so they understand royalties and copyright, and that sortof thing, so all I have to do to say to them, is like you are locking it intoan infinite time. Capsule you will always get riolet is so cool and I'mlike imagine frankly, I just think a couple months from now a year from nowor something everything we post on instagram and facebook and twittercould potentially just automatically become an Ft. I think so ta, that'swhat we're yeah. That's when the fun begins. That's since will see a chainof possession and custody all the way to the origin and the genesis ofeverything that would be awesome, and then we could just move on to the moreimportant things once we don't really care any more about who owns what ordid what, unless crime occurs and then we'll be able to point it out. I alsothink, while there is a lot of I mean scams and stuff, there's also moretransparency, I mean you can see people's wallets tri while ittransactions from you know from the very beginning. So that's we're able tocatch people easier in different ways. Like you know, there was that I don't know if you saw that, but therewas that seventeen year old recently that stole, like, I don't know threehundred K or something and crept in like multiple discords and then cameout and admitted it literally anete yeah that hopefully, but they were ableto figure out who he was regardless because they tracked his wallet and sothey you know the community backum into a quarter kind of was like hey what thehell and then he came out and was like. I'm sorry. So you know it's it'llpolice itself at a point two, because people aren't going to want to havetheir stuff stolen. So a great it's so transparent, yeah. The the point I wasI was maddening. I got into it with an older gentleman, I'm an older gentleman.He was older than me and he was like well what, if they download someone's Jpeg and put it up as their own, I'm like Dude Dude back up that is fraudcommitted in the real world. You re talking about fraud committed in thereal world being brought into the blockchain, so think about this. If youbrought fraud into the blockchain the moment, you brought it into theblockchain, we're watching you, we can see every fraudulent activity so thatpoint from the block chain on could be unwound right. So yeah I mean er goahead. Oh it even makes me wonder. Like recently, I think somebody had a coupleof their crypto punk stolen or something and yeah. So I mean the wholecommunity was watching the transactions, as somebody else bought them, and so,if you're buying stolen property, I don't know like it makes me wonder howit's going to eventually affect the court system and stuff to or and againyou'll catch people, people who are buying it. If the these cameras aregoing to have trouble selling these things eventually, yet they won't beable to sell them and eventually we'll be able to find out who the people arebehind those wallets. I mean they're anonymous for now, but they can befound out just like anything else. If you operate in the real world, somehowthe law can come, finds you through subpoenas and warrants, and things likethat so yeah, it just gets back to like there's going to be ten percentcriminals. Everywhere we go so I m that's kind of the biggest push backand then the other thing is the construct of believing that Crypto ismoney to begin with, and then you're going to buy fake art with fake money.Some people just have a hard time getting out of their heads, they're,just so intangling to work and cash in their lowly pay check and juststruggling and being mad and like well, we don't have to there's an option:Thou there's. Also you know, I don't mean to bring up the whole likecapitalism and politics. Both please do. We are foryeah. I love this.

I'm pretty socialist, just to be blunt,I never gone, and I mean pretty much everyone here is but yeah, which is you know, anarchonsocialism are like two sides of the same coin. In a weird way. Really Ireally are yeah yeah. I've explained to my audience my type of anarchism to itjust without rulers. I don't think we need rulers, it's not right. It's notcrime and mayhem. It's no not having rulers exactly. I think personal freedom isreally important. That's why I believe it. I believe as well same thing andfor me like, Oh, my God, I lost my train of thought. I got such a goodidea. Oh okay, so capitalism has trained us from a young age to worklike we are literally trained to be, like I don't know like little machinesand people will lose their jobs or quit their jobs or whatever and there's likenot only a stigma. That's negative! We have to UN train ourselves out of thesehabits, and so I just feel like there's a lot of pushback in fear with that tolike the idea of financial freedom. Everyone wants it, but when people haveit sometimes I feel like they don't know what to do with it and they'rescared of it in a really weird way, just because they haven't been taught,but that's okay, yeah for sure. But when you have that much power I have, Imean I literally go to sleep with freaking affirmations: to try to unwindall the crap that I was taught as a child about things like money and andwealth and abundance because it gets in you and I'm definitely of a generationlike generation x. We are fucking, you got to get up, you gotta have a job.You got to go to work and I freak out when I see people not doing that andthen I just have to realize. Like Oh, it's new, I don't have to do it either,and this is the cool port part about this, because a lot of the folks whohear this also suffer from mental illnesses and disorders, and thingslike that and may or may not be generally misaligned with their life.They feel miserable because they have to go do things they don't want to do,and I'm a big proponent of this idea that a lot of the mental disorders weencounter are because we're simply being forced to live in a capitalistsociety and act like a rat in a maze when you know we'd be much better offin ancient times. Well, and so working is a vocation ofrehabilitation counselor, which means I'm somebody that helps people withmental health challenges find work. Capitalism is hard like it's reallyhard, and no one wants to talk about how hard it is for sure. You feel ittoo, when you move to some place slower, because I've lived in downtown S F likethe tender line and the financial center, and that area you have to grinda lived in downtown Los Angeles. In the Hollywood same thing I didn't realizewas, I was in it and I was wondering why my blood pressure was going up. Ialways felt anxious just felt pressured right. Well, I got to the swamps ofLouisiana unwound after about a year and realized. Like oh there's, no grindhere. Nobody cares if I don't do anything so that was really interesting contrastand I think that kind of goes back to finding things that we can align withand, if not to say in that every artist I knowis mentally ill, but I know a lot of people who are creative that sufferbecause they're not connected with their creative output. Absolutely we'retaught to stifle it again from a really an age yeah straight up, and you knowwhat what was really fascinating to me is how adults like we have gyms andstuff. But I thought about like how helpful and beneficial would it be foradults to play on playgrounds to like promote creative play as an adult, ohyeah, because no one never talks about that. It's also stigmatized, but Ithink it could really open up some creative process for a lot of people tojust let loose in that way. It'd be an interesting study. I've thought aboutit. Oh my goodness, so you're speaking my language, all the money I make, if Iever make any money from ftes, is going to a non profit. I'm putting togethernow called emo Dojo and it's going to be a creative studio where, since I'm adrummer, my first thing was going to be like a rage room but with the drums sojust less to clean up, but then right. Well, if it's drums, why not a giantart room with paints and things like that, and then I'm like Oh yeah and, ofcourse, a digital space, so yeah emo Doji just going to be an art studio forboth music and you know traditional art. They love that idea. There's got to beways again for adults to incorporate creativity and other daily life. I justcan make it normal. Yeah hang out and go play with each other well, and it would make Peter Peoplebetter workers in a capitalist society any way to promote play because they'dbe happier and they'd be more like willing to do it. There's just ourwhole system is just so it's so broken yeah yeah. It soundedlike a good idea. It's definitely getting off the tracks and too manypeople are suffering that don't need to be it's too much so who now go ahead?Sorry, sorry, I was just going to say anotherthing in my master's program. That really fascinated me fascinated me was learning about how much narcissism isin positions of power, Oh yeah, so e in our society. We also promoteNARSISI and sociopath IC tendencies...

...into positions of power in managementpositions, and that's also, I believe, what causes a lot of the anxiety andstress. Oh, we don't sure yeah, we don't shameit. We companies will literally go after people that have these attributesto make them leaders good it's unfortunate, it's so miserable too, andthey run, and they just run around gas lighting. Everybody trying to makeeverybody feel small. All the way up to the highest levels of our government,but even to the lowest levels at small companies, because we see it throughthe media that narcissis ter being rewarded. It makes it tough for likeabsolute unquote, good folks to win yeah and it demoralizes everyone elseunder them. They don't want to work for that yeah and they don't want to becomethat either right. They don't that sucks. You are listening to epic thunder catin the EMO Dojo with Johnny motions, let's some so we haven't mentionedreally your art. Much at all. I want to promote, like your art, especiallybecause so you've got a great background and you, given your all withcredentials back to the mental health community, but your art project isexceptional. That's kind of what caught my eye. Originally I've been into art.Since I was little, I was one of those little gifted kids. They sent to theballet and the museums instead of school and well eventually, I flamed out like atfourteen, I'm like sea got to get out of here. Go Do my drugs, but your artis something else. There's tons of profile, pick or P F P projects as theycall them in the space. Sometimes I'll explain the lingo to the mental healthaudience. They don't know what the Hell I'm saying. Sometimes so, but your artwork is extraordinary. Like this audience you guys whoever is listeningright now. You have to go check into this project so I'll point the way andthen I'll, let you keep talking so if you're listening and you got want to go,look at what we're talking about just start at epic thunder Cat Com. Sothat'll take you. What can I call you anyway, epic Thunder Cat Yeah? That's my screen, name, yeah ofcourse, and so also to explain that everybody in the NF space uses theirscreen. Name is just the way it works and I always respect people's wishes todo whatever the hell they wish. So I'm just going to call you a big thundercat to the listener to your guys, listening yeah yeah go to epic ThunderCato and check out some of the stuff qui about to be talking about. Okaycool just so they understand too. Part of the reason I personally use to us.Er name is also because I have clients, it's just better etiquette yeah to keepmy work life and my ft live separate. I wrestle with that a lot because I'vebeen doing mental health podcast for a long time like and like I said it usedto be called by polar style, so there's no way. I was going to associate thatwith my real identity so yeah they they know, I mean kind of, because I go backand forth with this particular audience. I think that's the only audience likemy family, they don't care. They know me work life. Every city, I've moved tothey're like who is this weird? Oh Yeah. I think it's fun nowadays. It's almostlike kind of expected like if you went into the end of t space with your realname, you'd be like who's this guy, like what do you do it be kind of weirdright? I'm started to do it because it is kind of weird specifically like thiswhole time, people using their real pictures on Linkedin and everything. Iwas shown up with the Dorky picture, but now everyone's Cosin Dorky pictures,I'm like Hey, I'm going to go the opposite. I'm no go put my real pictureup on one of these accounts, but for the podcast, though, I think it helpsthat people see that I'm a real human. So when I invite people to be on theshow than sense O it's a real dude, but now I play as that Genya faceeverywhere else. Yeah I I mean I've seen more and more people usetheir profile. Pictures like their board, apes and stuff in linked in evenyeah becoming larger, be that's because a lot of celebrities are buying into itand stuff. So it's a big Flix, it's kind of like the online version ofbuying a Lamborghini. I guess it is that is so true. Yeah I'll get there,though more about my project, I'm not sure if I would buy it. I because Ireally am into art for the art sake and personally, my my audience won't care that I seethis, but I just I think the ape art itself is it's not my speed. It's notmy thing. You know. I thought that at first I was like these are really likeunattractive images, but lately just the environment like I'm digging thewhole, because there's two different sides to ftse, there's the art side andthen there's the profile picture side and the PS P side is really more likecommunity centered so like when I saw the recent stuff with them and like theyacht that they went on and all this fun stuff I was like you know itactually seems kind of cool. I wouldn't mind having one but where it stands nowI mean they're going for like a hundred and fifty k and yeah, you don't havethat to drop so we straight up. I mean they very much are like driving fancycar out on the road. Unless you were somebody that got inearly which lucky them but yeah, I'm...

...sure there's not a left at this point,and to that point I think those would be the crypto people the people gotinto crypto early but to to our point we're the people getting to as artistgetting into NF early. It's still really ray, it is still really early. Iwant to know about your art, so how long have you considered yourself anartist? I have been painting since I was alittle kid I mean since I could write, I have been painting it initiallystarted. I was drawing like line tunes and really cheesy stuff. When I usuallylittle and then I got into anime and then I felt tunerty doing that. So Itried to get out of it and painted a lot of like monsters and, like I don'tknow, creepy stuff. I like creepy stuff. I like horror, started painting that, but it also for so the audience knows. I have adhdand I have non verbal tarets, which means I have a tick disorder itsell thesame thing I just say non verbal treat so people understand, but it's calledtick, Tis, murder and the only time that my body truly feels calm is whenI'm painting. So I learned that at a young age, when I was in class, itwould help me focus on my teachers were talking. So I just developed the skill over timebecause I've been drawing forever yeah. It's great. Your Work Looks Great. WhatI see online, I assume, is digital, but it has a very kind of water collar kindof vibe to it yeah I started so. Okay, I've alwaysdone water, color, initially like regular on canvas until Colvin happened,and then I ended up trying digital. I got an IPAD finally and made the leaptowards digital because I really struggled with digital initially,because it felt very, I don't know I didn't get into the flowstate with it. I just my body, I couldn't do it. It's like I felt drainstaring at the screen, but I found procreate on the IPAD and it feels sonatural and fluid that it's the only program I've been able to use and I'msuper grateful for it. So I really started digital. Like I don't know ayear and a half ago, two years, wow at the most are all of you are ftes thatyou have up that. I can see on these galleries, digital yeah, they're,digital and then so. When I first started in the N F T space, I startedon this really weird website which is gone under pretty much at this point. Idon't know if I call it a rug pole, but it was really weird, but I was a Banaison there and initially I grossed forty K in a month, which is,it was like mind, blowing and life changing. How can imagine right yeah? Iwas I remember that I was like shaking and stuff and all that stuff was myactual water color work. I had like probably ten years of work on there,which kind of bots me out now, just because I wish it was on like theregular block chains. I didn't know what I was doing in the beginning. Iwasn't as educated. So if I could go back, I would have started on open sea,but on open sea. The stuff that I have is yeah, it's all digital, I'm lookingat the one, you have an object: The fish. I love that one hoh yeah yeah right to. I just startedon that site about a couple days ago. Yeah me to ever, since the name of thesite that I can't pronounce the hand sit, went down yeah it was all well. I guess it kindof like a lot of people did the same thing. Open Sese gas prices were toohigh for our customers or potential buyers. So we're looking for optionsand object had the coolest name, I thought and straightforward it has anice interface to it looks yeah it's Nice, looking yeah so yeah. I startedthe same thing so I'm like I'm hauled down with the TAS for sure. Well,because I have a music background and I think Tad will be big moving forward. I know a lot of the bigplayers in the music world have already plunked down lots of real world moneyinto that. Really I actually I haven't kept up on the Teso stuff as much soI'm still pretty new to it. Yeah you should get your tes Dame it still onlywhatever Tis t one time yeah, I wonder, are they going to do air drops for thattoo? I don't know I didn't get into it for that, but once I heard about theair drop I'm like well, let me pick up a couple more of these tas names, justman because of the music space thing, because there's easy, like I don't know,I'm about to get musical dot, tess nobody bought musical yet and I'mthinking that might be good yeah anyway. So the test things reallycool, but I just meant to mention that the quality of this this fish picturehere has a kind of the yen Yang quality to it little balance and this world yeah I've tried to go on Tessos. I'vedone. I did okay, so I have my initialcollection, which is like more broad spectrum, emotional states kind of tobring awareness to emotions and how they impact us and then, as peoplecollect, then when they get enough- and I have that written down- it's in myit's not really a road map. I call it a vision Mat because I'm an artist not Ilike that, I'm not a company. I got an investor class person right like I there's I feel like thereshould be a separation, because people collectors come in and they're wantingartists to do the things that these companies do and when you're one persondoing all of these things. It's not going to be the same experience as agiant company O, it's just going to...

...feel different, and so I prefer visionmap over road map to separate. I love that and it was actually the amount ofwork you've done on your monsters of mind. Let me let me say that moreclearly, so that the transcription software picks it upbetter on your monsters of mind project. So this is super super cool and knowingnow how much work all of this stuff takes. Generally speaking, you've putan extra amount of work in this so to the viewer. What she's developed isalmost a series like a every portrait, portrays a differentemotion and if you collect enough emotions,it's Gamification, you can get points. Can I mean? That's that's a good startfor the listener, but tell me more about how you gamifying the emotionalset there. So essentially, I thought about how there's so much complexityand mental illness and that a lot of people when they get these diagnosis.They have trouble like understanding the emotions that they're feeling thatare relating to these diagnoses, I guess, and so for me. I I created it sothat there's like a level one where you have the basic emotional states andthen your air dropped a more basic diagnosis if you will level to theirmore complex which the art also got more complex, because I also knew overtime my art would develop and change through as normal. So then, the air jobs for that are morelike personality disorders and things like that that are a little moreintense in the DSM and then level three which will be even more complex, will have the air drops air drops by the wayor like free, free pieces that I gift people they'll, be like that like story, endings andtherapy, and things like that. I want to incorporate kind of like, I guess,conceptualized story endings. So when people collect these, I also when theyget their their air drops their free ones. I write in what order they gotthem in and I'll write. Something like you started your life with greatsadness and I'll go in and explain like the emotions as they collect them andleading into why I picked the mental illness that they received. That's fantastic. I love that, and itreally does kind of, I won't say closures that the right word to use forthere, but it does bring it full circle, so it feels like you've completed amission in that sense and causes you to move forward right. So that way I mean it's an noone has to have a diagnosis to play it and they don't really pick the one thatthey get it's just based on the choices that they made kind of. Like a pick,your own adventure game, I guess yeah, that's so great! You know what I figured out. I figuredit was a decent way to spread awareness about mental health challenges because,especially like I don't know, I feel like in this space. There wasn't afocus on it. Initially, there's been a couple projects that have come outsince I started lost boys is one that's a profilepicture one, but as far as like what I'm doing, I haven't seen anythingsimilar personally, I don't see many especially done to this level. So whatmakes yours different to me for sure is the amount of artwork you create. Youare a prolific artist. You create so much different kind of art work. Itdefinitely have a style, and some of these I just love to have blown up onthe wall behind me, for example. So I think people you have to do yourself,the favor to go. Look at all of these things. If you go to open, see dot, I os, collection, a monsters of mine, you'll, see what I'm talking aboutright now, and so this is fastidit, because you can so here's another thingwith sceptics, the like no, it's all bullshit or whatever. Well, if you goto the website it just mentioned, you can see that their trading volume andif you click enough buttons, you can like literally see how much money canbe made from art, and so just suspend believe for a second and imagine if youcan go. Do your thing, whether it's you know paint a picture. Take a photographplay some music and upload it to a website like open sea, for example, orobject. Then man, you could actually make some money. It doesn't really costyou much talk about the cost, though so we talked about the high price of gas.Did you get started uploading some of these collections, like the monsters ofmind before gas went up? Did it cost you? I guess I'm just getting at howmuch did it really cost to get the ball rolling for you as an individual artist?So I think when I did the first one, because on open sea you don't pay tomint. I mean I still paid a lot in gas in other ways, but when I put a regularlisting up, I'm not paying the gas fee, the consumer is but the first initial one I had to paytwo hundred dollars. However, if I do an auction, I have to pay a percentage as all ofthe gas, so I pay there's a fee that goes to open, see it's like two point:five percent or something, and then on top of that there's the gas fees, whichI mean, I've seen it as high as like two hundred bucks. It just depends itso really what the gas feesare is. It...

...depends on how many people areprocessing a transaction at that time, but there's going to be a theory um twopoint: Oh the second: It's going to be like an upgrade and then eventually thegas problem will go away, but where we stand now, unfortunately, it is a thing.But from what I understand, you can write off the gas fees on taxes as aloss. So I'm looking into that at least yeah.That's great and this podcast is coming out in the middle of November right nowand I anticipate the level two forty therium should be done by you knowfirst part of the year coming up, so it's yeah, it's not that far away andthey've got competition like Tasos and Solana, breathing down their neck withmuch lower gas fees on their platforms. So all signs are pointing to goodthings like the cost is just going to come down for people to get into it. Yeah I've been, I mean I personally,because the gas these are so high. A lot of artists will charge like zeropoint, one which is like five hundred dollars or something four hundred right.Now I don't know something around there. I only charge zero point zero five. Sofor me it's like a hundred and eighty ish, depending on a Theorem, but I've kept my prices pretty low incomparison to other projects on that change, because I know that there isagain a lot of people coming into the scene that can't afford to put out a ton of moneyand it's still a lot of money. But another thing that I've thought about-and I've talked about with my community as if we continue to do so well, I'dreally like to put a percentage into some sort of like community pot. If youwill and then people the re active in the community, we can have a vote andsay hey this person's been here for x amount of time. We should give thismoney. We should use this money towards like getting them a piece of art sothat they don't have they can segue into it without having to pay for itright if they've been around yeah for sure there's. In fact, I just did aninterview with the gentleman named Conrad who runs, I guess, a dol forlack of a better word. I'm not sure it's officially a dol, but it's adiscord, channel server called outcast verse, so outcast vers is doing thatit's kind of the same thing. It's a mental health, leaning Discord Serverwhere N FT artist hang out, and I think what they're doing is once a weekthey're from not sure if it's game ified or how it's democraticallyorganized, but through the server they pick one of their artists by a piece oftheir art and been promoted on twitter and what not? Well that's nice too.What is it called a verse, yeah, okay, I'll, have to look into that yeahthey're, all ales there's, so many great new projects popping up all thetime. It's so cool, yeah right and was really neat- is that the art since artis very subjective. It kind of doesn't matter, there's art for all differenttypes. So, when you're into N ft, you don't have to search by art type youcan search by by VI by feel and if you want to hang out with the investorclass and just try to crawl your way up to get it ape. You can do that if youwant to support small artists or hang out with people that have other similarmental issues. You can do that and you feel like you're at home. I thinkthat's one of the bigger takeaways from all of this is people are findingstarting to find their kind of true tribe or community yeah. I think, like my monsters of mine twitter, mypinned post on it right now says not to ask who you are and just be yourself,because the truth of the matter is like I mean we're, lacking some demographicsin the NF space. This is true, but eventually this face is going to grow.Just be yourself and your tribe will happen over time. I mean you will findthem Lyo people out there yeah. So please be yourself because, just toyour point, like obviously I'm a middle aged white dude, there's plenty of USeverywhere, all over the fucking planet and kind of depressingly, once this nft take, took or took off, I guess I kind of noticed the same thing itinstantly became like a mirror of the real world. It's like ninety fivepercent white guys like Jeez, I'm glad you're all hiding behind your your Pfps, because if you weren't this would look really bad so yeah. It's I wish we were. I mean Iwish the blockchain could actually tell us is that is that another white guy?Is that a? Why? Guy Again, something like that, I think luckily, the againas it grows, though, because it's really just a matter of reaching thosedemographics and figuring out what they need to get involved Yep, becauseeveryone should have the ability to have financial freedom. At some point,yeah I mean really, and this kind of is as level of a entry field. Let's callit the plain field, still kind of stacked against. You know newcomers,let's say, but the entry field is really level. So if you want to justtake off- and if you think one type of person or a class of people has iteasier, you can actually be that person in n FT world and try it out foryourself, but to thunder cats point it's just better to be yourself, it'sso much easier and you will find your own tribe and then you can go createart, it's so a so amazing. Well, another thing I think is really great.Is I've noticed a lot of people that...

...didn't use to do art are trying tothey're trying so many different creative outlets, even though theydon't know what they're doing? And I think that is such a beautiful concept.It's really pushing people into this creative zone. It's like almost likebeing a kid again. I love it if it Le Cool and newcomers seem in my mind, myjaded, like long term marketing mind newcomers seem to have the advantageany time you get a giant property, unknown intellectual property, asuperstar. If you will, whether it's a sports hero or music person any timethey come into the FT space, they don't necessarily succeed. In fact, I ha yohaven't seen any succeed. Yet that's why a lot of them I feel like, aregoing and buying like born apes and stuff right now, because I meanwhenever they try to make your own collections, people are like no thankyou yeah. I now is cool now yeah. I love that it could go up and down thewhole spectrum. That way. Here's a hard question or tricky question, because Iknow of a couple of blind people that listen to the show. How would youdescribe your work to a blind person? Let's see, I would say, because hm it's very like messy was struck. Sure I like a lot oftexture like if you could, let's see if youcould feel it, I feel like it would be very textured. I do explain it: Do they underst theydo they can they see color like do they know where they blind from childhood,to I'm thinking of we're blind from childhood, but you described it reallywell. In the sense that, if you could feel it instantly, you pulled out theempathy card, most people wouldn't think that blind people feel their waythrough lives. But I like how you just said: If you could feel it, it wouldfeel kind of messy. I feel like you, would have a lot a lot of messiness,because emotions are messy. They are chaotic and it's okay to have them bechaotic, and I think it would be also like. Sometimes my art is kind ofspooky too just so they're aware like sometimes it can be kind of like alittle bit smoky and creepy, because from my experience with having mentalillness like a lot of times this, these feelings of happiness and stuff, theyare fleeting, like you have good days, but there's also a lot of really crappydays. So that's why a lot of my art gearstowards like the darker spectrum as well. It's really Cathartic. I lovelooking at it as much as you may have enjoyed creating it honestly, I'm a bigFan of midnight society, special monkey that one's pretty awesome. Thank youand I came up with the Midnight Society because I used to really like. Are youafraid of the dark when I was a kid, and I felt like nostalgia is anothervery important feeling that a lot of people have and sorry my cats meowing.If you hear anything in the background cute, she keeps bothering me but yeah. I just felt like nostalgia, islike a really strong, powerful emotion and something kind of fun to becauseyou can't always have things be depressing or real. Sometimes you needto have that self care time where things are a little bit like I don'tknow out there yeah. I agree I mean for sure I'm notlike coming from a music background, a lot of times a sad song will come on. You know the playlist and I'm alreadyin a sad mood, and I'm like you know what I'm just going to go with it, I'mjust going to cry it out and just let this sad feeling flow through on Max and yeah. I think it's actually makeslife worth living in that sense. Absolutely I try really hard with myproject to cater to like when I'm drawing an emotional state. I tryreally hard to think about the audience that I'm drawing for and what theymight be feeling, which is where a lot of like I get in like a really deepflow estate, and I put myself in these emotions as I'm drawing them. So that's amazing. I mean it's. This isthe part where I kind of SCRIP, because I'm sitting here staring at yourdrawings, while you're telling me this and I'm about to fall into a hypnoticstate myself, that's so wild! That's why a lot of the like a lot of them allof a sudden started having all these really jumbled lines, and it's just. Istarted getting really deep into the emotional states of like when I wasdrawing them and like these lines, just started appearing. So it's almost likea projection of like I don't know like I want to see like my psyche, I don'tknow how to how to say it, but it's like a projection of like my mind on tothe paper yeah. No, that's! That's a that's a good way to say it, because Ithink when I look at that, I kind of get the feeling that you're talkingabout. If you can, if you could imagine an emotion, almost the one came to youin a vision. While you were sleeping or something this is kind of like thePhantom. Like look, I would imagine they look like sort of like a cartoonsort of creepy but friendly yeah. It's kind of a got a nice duality to it all yeah. I try to make it a lot of different feelings at once. Ithink a lot of the time, but I will say...

...a lot of the things, because a lot ofmy underlying mental health stuff is also anxiety, related yeah. So I feellike a lot of that, comes out with all of them. I can't really help it. It'sjust part of me. What is the one of the NEAT things about? Digital art is theadded element of movement, and I noticed some of these have like thatglitch effect which really drives the picture home, because it's already hasthat, like you said like a messy field like a busy vibe and then the glitchjust takes it over and I'm a huge fan of color, so in all that we've talkedabout, I don't think we've mentioned color, but all of your stuff is verycolorful, even though it might be dark or slightly creepy. Sometimes it'ssuper colorful, and it's oddly enough. I've always done that, even when, evenwith my water color for some reason, my arts always been subtly creepy, don'tknow why. Well at least since I started drawing monsters, just kind of happenedyeah, but we've always been colorful monsters. They've always been. I kindof I don't know like. I want them to have like color splash,but also be slightly unnerving kind of like a mix of both. So it'salmost confusing yeah. That's no! I love that and it's a great like I said,a duality it s the smooth and the pleasantness of the color and thenyou're drawn in by the squiggles and such and I've been trying to animate more toI had a request in my inbox asking me specifically for more animated pieces,because I think people are wanting to get like animated picture frames and isbecoming lore more popular, so I've been trying to go through and make sure that everything is animated.Lately I love this. I could sit and look at your art all day. Nervousnessthree is amazing. Thank you. So I think I might the one that'slowest on the floor right now. I might buy it up. I think I'm going to buy itand change the Metadata to so it's moving and then use it as a give awayhere soon. Well, that's a whole other show. In fact, could you come back likein a couple of months, so we check in on you, I think you'll probably be richand famous and retired from your day job by then. Maybe, although I mightstill work my day job, I love helping people yeah just to keep it it yeah forsure. I think you know, and I helping peopleas a lot of my inspiration, for what I'm doing right now so yeah. You could tell well, and a lot ofpeople mean well, but you actually have artistic talent that really superpowers. Your effort, I think, and that I mean you know I mean you, you dealwith people a lot that have mental problems and a lot of those people meanreally well and they just haven't connected in life because they don'thave a thing. Your art is definitely your thing. This is amazing. I had someone tell me a couple times that they haveautism and they told me that my art helped them understand emotions in adifferent way because they struggle with it yeah- and I felt personallylike that- was really moving to hear, because it's not something that Ipersonally thought about, but I just a really appreciated that I thought itwas really see. Yeah, that is, sweet and they've got an excellent pointbecause a lot of times, if you're on the spectrum, you can't necessarilyread faces, or you can't read subtle signs and your arm is more intense thansubtle. I guess is a good way to put it like. It takes the emotion that wouldbe just a subtle emotion and shows you the real depth of in the intensity ofwhat that emotion can actually be like for the for the person feeling it rightthrough colors and stuff. You know I was thinking, there's a term for peoplethat see emotions as colors yeah, and I think I like synesthesia or somethinglike that. I'm pretty sure I have that. Oh I don't know, I don't have it withnumbers and letters, but but emotions and other things like definitely havecolor. Is it hard to balance your artisticside with the more logical side, that's required to put together a communityand the game ification part of your project, and all that you know not really. Oddly enough, Ifeel like the enty space is so new that the creativity is endless and that'spart of what I love so much about it. It's you know when I first started, Iwas really nervous and I was kind of like it almost felt directionlessbecause I was like I don't know what I'm doing. I would ask people for advice and be likehey. What should I do and people would be like just do whatever you want, I'mlike I too big. I can't I want too many things. I know that feeling right so Ijust started hearing people's opinions and taking them kind of with a grainassault, but also applying like aspects of them and that's how this happened. Ireally think a lot of it is just treating people like people, hearingthe collectors and their needs and applying them, and it's really thatsimple I mean I've. Had A lot of people recently asked me how how did you makea successful project and it's just hearing people they're, just peoplemake friends, H, yeah and lets a hit.

You round well you're a trainedlistener like if you work in that space. You have training and practicelistening to people. So that's a big plus anybody could do it, but it takes.It does take a lot of practice. That is true yeah. It can be more difficult,especially to understand, like the underlying feeling is of when somebodysaying something yeah, that's great, some one. Theymight be saying one thing, but needing another thing: it happens a lot withpeople most of the time yeah or just because of the way they were raised. Ifthey were raised by Narcissus, they tend to. You know, walk on egg shells and notsay what they mean. Oh my God, it tries to be crazy when I'm around people, Icould tell they've been raised by Narcissus, because they have this kindof oblique way of asking for things because they don't want to impose, butthey need something done yeah. They have to learn how to find their voice alot of the time which is a process in itself and often takes a lot of therapyyeah for sure. Well, I'm glad you're in this space for sure and you're doingreally well with your art, and you clearly are giving back with your skilland your training in the mental health space, so so much of that is needed allaround the country in the world. So I can't thank you enough. It's you know.How do you think somebody for doing things that are just so necessity inmodern life? Thank you. I appreciate it. I won't begoing anywhere I'll, be here forever. I am a for lifer for sure, so yeah I downthe road I'll still be here doing some. That's a really cool thing that I foundabout artist in the FT space versus projects or companies is that theartist was making our long before and its were around and they will camacaart so invest in artists. You know I mean it's fun, if you're an investor totake your crypto and play the P F, P game for sure, but also like check outactual art and if you're selling, like that's a back to what I was sayingearlier, that's really what caught my eye first. Was Your Art, I saw your artfirst and then I read how cool your project was. So if your art wasn'tpopping, I wouldn't have read further so yeah. It takes a lot of differentmoving parts to make a successful project, but I think you're just greatproof that people can do it and it's a real thing, and if anybody wants tolook at your work, that all they have to do is go to your website and checkit out. Tell me: What do you want to share anything elseand do you is there a best way for people to dive into your world? I think just starting with my websiteand then going to my monsters and mind thing works to a, although I think alsomy open sea has a discord link. My discord is actually probably the start.The best number one point, because that's where we do all of like theevents and games and things like that, and once we hit thirty ethereum volumehere soon. Last time we did a game or a game event. It was like a partyreally and the mods and myself we had like actual games in like it was allverbal. We were actually talking over the voice, chat and played a bunch ofthings, and then I handed out like twelve free pieces of art, but it was like six hundred bucks ingas fees but whole we were it yeah yeah it was expensive, but you know it'sjust part of giving back. I mean I'm getting all this money from people. Ineed to make sure that their money is well spent. So that's a great reinventfor sure right and that's again, it's all open ended. That's why it's so funwe can just do whatever we want is a community.It's great. That is a weird thing about whenever you make any crypto money, it's like yeah, okay, because I suspendbelief to play Crypto and then, when I make money, I kind of suspend beliefbackward thinking. That's not actually real money just leave it there playwith this week. It's like monopoly money, but not yeah, because you knowI'm like I'm like. Well, I don't want to convert it again. I don't reallyhave anything I need to buy this week or anything so I'll just play it andyou keep doing that time and time again and then it grows and grows and growslike what now. So I can only imagine the future when you have enough moneyto just like yeah I want to buy a castle, is now the day to buy thatcastle. I don't know. Well I just even tonight. I finally made the leap into aprofile picture project which I had been debating for a long time. The gutter cats gang O, that's a Godthat on what that's, exciting, yeah well, I've heard really good thingsabout it, and I had a few people tell me that they're really good with beingsupportive and stuff. So I was like okay and it was like three thousanddollar USD technically, but you know I had it and it doesn't. It doesn't feellike that. Like right, I spent it, and now I mean I've gotten a ton of follows.I've made friends already it's it's just such an experience in itself likeyeah. It sounds like a lot of money to people who aren't in the space, but itreally is worth it. If you can afford it yeah, you can work your way up tothese things, too. I mean you, can trade and flip and then eventually getup there and the three thousand. Doesn't it's not that much anymore? No,that's the thing! It's a lot to the average person and most of my listenersare still in the cash dirt world, but rightonce you get over the Hump andinto FTES, for example, get that couple...

...of hundred dollars to load up yourcollection. You can start making art and then you can buy your own nfd andthen you can flip it wait for it to you, know, increase in value and theyincrease in value daily. This is like day trading of the s like when the comsfirst came around right. This is the speed at which things increase in valuenow. So that's really amazing. It is so fast. It is is so volatile toa degree, but also like once you know who, in the community kind of knowswhat they're doing and who people are like really just hanging out on twitterand getting to know everyone is like the start. I wouldn't buy anything justfor the listeners out there. I wouldn't buy anything initially right away. Iwould go on twitter and start networking in and kind of, get to knowwho people are to know what to buy. That way. You don't end up like wastingmoney on things that aren't that you know they are going to tank, becausethat does happen, oh for sure, yeah, and if it's going to mean, if you justbuy him for art sake than by on the visual aesthetic value and the price,if you're buying for community and all those other things, yeah, definitely doyour research, it's pretty easy to do. The research just follow people who arecool and look at who they're following and see how they became decent humansin the NFD space. It'll all work out. I noticed you basically Telele by thingsyou love, because that way, if the price goes down, you don't feel badyeah. You still love it right. That's when you have it for everexactly and there's proof, and if you ever ever want to get rid of it, youcould still sell it. Yeah there's! I don't know, aside from the initial kindof risk, to get into the game. There's not much downside at all, especiallyfor artists agreed. No, I o, my only regret is notgetting into the sooner I didn't know about it. Yeah I don't Y A. I don'tknow how much sooner we could have known. I mean I'm pretty up on tack andart and design and like well. Okay, I'm not up on Cryptonemiaceae the one thingI was not up on and okay now I am filling the blank yeah I at first, whenI heard about it, I thought it was ridiculous. Like everybody elseadmitting Ly, I mean my friend Jonathan had called,and I was just like I don't that is so weird, but the second I heard about theroyalties and how it works and how thinking about how artists have beenunderpaid. Historically for so long, I was immediately like yes, we need thisso bad in our world that I was, I don't know it just hit me and I was like I'mdoing it. Yeah yeah there's no going back once you're once you're in you're.In that's great, I noticed your discord is actually on Gore, twitter, bio. Sofor the listener, if you just go to twitter S, monsters of mind, you'll,see epic thunder cats, monsters, a mine project there and the discord serverwill take you to what's the name of the Midnight Special Midhat Socii Society,Yeah Yeah Cool. I think I'm going to join there. If you see Johnny MotionShow Up. That's me also, all right, yeah, it's a fun. It's a fun community,especially we had. I had Gary V, share a piece ofmy art. The other day I saw, but definitely like we got more people inpretty quickly. It was pretty cool that is awesome you're on fire. Why going anywhere? So I no see that'sthe great thing for a true artist to be on fire. It's like it's only going tobe great, like buy some art. Now you could just limit your output, make a asnitting. I mean I've cried like multiple times just from feeling validated I mean I had wantedto be an artist since I was a kid. My whole life and I worked so hard and Ithought I would be stuck working a lower income, social services jobforever and like now, I actually feel like a realartist that, like her great my smiles so big when I hear stories like that,it's life changing yeah, absolutely right. I mean if it sounds so sounds oto the new listener that just came in on this podcast. It sounds like we'retalking about people winning the lottery, but it's even better than that,because it's money they made from their own creative output right, I mean there's no more beautiful thing in myopinion than seeing because I've been there, but also watching other artiststhat sell something and they're. You know writing about it on twitter andthey're shaking and they're crying and they're like so excited because theysold out. I mean this happens every day in the space all the time for sure sobeautiful. I love that so as a therapist. I have to ask this becauseit comes up in my own mind a lot or I don't mean to put therapist on you tonot a therapist but since you're in that realm, and you have that trainingright. The topic of toxic positivity comes to mind when I see people sayingwe're all going to make it because, statistically, of course, we're all notgoing to make it, but then on the flip side, without that on ongoingencouragement and positivity, I wouldn't be there. So do you? Do youunderstand what I'm talking about first and then do you see any problems withpeople jumping in too soon and just thinkingit's going to be the end, all the save...

...all to help their life when it'sactually es and I get worried about the people who maybe don't understand therisks either, because, yes, there I mean yeah, you can have financialfreedom, some people can, but if you're going in and you're just throwing moneyaround- and you don't know what you're doing I mean that that is terrifying tome, because people after they lose all this money, they get suicidal, they getseverely depressed, and sometimes there is no coming back from that. There's norecovering and then the we're all going to make it thing. It doesn't reallyapply, but I mean I think it's so early that if somebody hangs out and gets tolearn the community really well, I think that there is a really highchance of getting to make it, especially because I mean, even in thespace after you network enough, you can be famous people. I mean real life likesomeone that I knew on my facebook for a long time he got into nts before me.He made Oh, my God. It was like Voodoo dolls,wodage or whatever on else he he does pretty well, but he just went to theBoard Yah club event that happened recently and he was like. I got himparting with, like all these famous people and they're all really wealthy,and he was like really excited like post on facebook. So these things canhappen, but you have to be educated and know what you're doing. I Guess YeahYeah and know that there are ups and downs like don't go in all like. So my my worry about some of thosefolks who jump in think they're going to make it they last a week and thenthey get super super depressed because they have no patience and they think,like Oh gosh. This was supposed to be the dream for everybody, and even eventhe dream, for everybody is no good for me. I'm guess I'm out of here. So Ijust I guess. I'm just want to remind people to be patient. Like and to yourpoint, don't spend money, you don't have on things, you don't need, butanother thing I've noticed is give it at least twelve months. I am kind of ananomaly and I recognize that I've done decently well, for my project is onlyfour months old who so I've done yeah you could? Yes, that's great, it's forsome reason. I've done really well, but most people a lot of times. I need ittakes a full year, twelve months of consistency, because collectors need toknow you're not going to disappear, they need to know that you're going tobe there for a really long time and you have to build friendships and build aport with people like with anything else. So it's kind of like being an FTartist is also being a CEO, it's being an artist and it's being like acommunity engagement specialist at the same time, like you're doing all ofthese things at once, yea, not just being an artist yeah or maybe like being a politicianrunning for office like you, can't really do anything wrong in yourcommunity. If you do they're gone they're leave if you're not a stand upvirtuous person, the yeah well, and I think what we're going to see is thepeople who are actually dedicated to their communities or the people thatare going to come out of it. Really successful, yeah, agreed and and goodart helps, but it's not a requirement. I think that's the anomaly we speakspeak of with your situation is that your art kicks ass and you're dedicatedto community so Brabo for that like, and I really appreciate you coming onthe show. It takes a lot of courage to get up and just speak on a show or apodcast you've never heard of, or you know it's just a weird thing to like,come home on a Sunday evening. An talk on a podcast, but you've done anawesome job and I think my listeners will love it and man. I can. I can'tthank you enough now. Here's an odd question. I hadn't thought about thisuntil now, were you know, right before we record him? If I save this audiofile as a wave file, do you have a problem with me uploading it somewhereas a n FT? Oh, I don't care, go ahead. It'd beneat, that's fine to think I've got so if I do, it probably be on object andI'll probably be using tes, because that's the music area, but I don't seemany podcast people putting the shit up on the Internet, like, I think, that'sa good idea. Why not yeah just do it, I'm going to go record some drum tracksand put him up their tops, throw a bunch of Spaghetti a whatever just put it off, er see whathappens and now back to the wall.

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