John | Podcasting
John | Podcasting

Episode · 10 months ago

NFT Artist EpicThunderCat: Live from Emo Dojo


John welcomes EpicThunderCat, a rising NFT artist with deep ties to both the art community and mental health outreach. As an artist and licensed mental health worker, her new project "Monsters of Mind" aims to spread mental health awareness through digital artwork, more commonly known as NFTs.

The discussion is wide-ranging and covers a lot of interesting topics, including ...

  • DSM and the inherent corporate bias of psych labels
  • Wrong meds; unmet expectations
  • Pill shaming and stigma
  • Diversity in the NFT space
  • Difficulties in on-boarding new artists
  • The Fear of Change
  • The Fear of Financial Freedom
  • Narcissism in Society
  • Epicthundercat’s Origins Story
  • The Art Process
  • Opensea and Objkt
  • Companies have roadmaps; artists have vision maps
  • The Monsters of Mind Collection
  • Shoutout: Conrad at Outcastverse
  • Diversity in NFTs; hiding behind your PFP
  • Shoutout: Guttercat Gang
  • Getting Over The Hump
  • Give it at least 12 months
  • Epicthundercat breaks through social anxiety and fear of speaking!

Cover art for this episode is a cropped portion of EpicThunderCat's "Love - 13" trading at .35 ETH when this podcast was uploaded. Learn more at Follow @johnemotions on Twitter

All right, welcome back. I'm John and you've stepped into the EMO Dojo. Thanks for showing up today. We've got a fantastic show. You're going to love it. Regardless if you came from the art, the technology or the mental health background, this episode is for you. So little context first, and we're going to jump right into it. My guest name today is epic thundercat. Sounds kind of odd, but when you realized she is a artist in the NFT space, and in the NFT space everyone uses pseudonyms, you know, pen names, stage names, whatnot very common, not as weird as it sounds at all. And what you are about to hear is effectively the entire conversation we recorded live at Emo Dojo. What's really cool about it is that she and I both have adhd. So there is not a dull moment in this entire podcast. So grab some water, buckling your seat belt and get ready, because we've got a good solid hour of epic thundercat here in the Emo Dojo. There's suddenly homewort, that diagnosis out there. So isn't it wild out everything is so interconnected, like all of the diagnosis seem to be in a connection to more you book at any one of them? Yeah, I've actually thought that they need to change the DSM to have spectrumized mental illnesses rather than just blatant this is the diagnosis and these are the symptoms, because really the insurance companies are who wrote that to begin with and it's not very human centered and it's not very accurate for a lot of people who are like in the middle of different labels. Yeah, that's actually a really good point. I didn't think about that. Who actually wrote like the DSM labels? And to your point, it had to have been some industry, the industry that you know benefits from labeling things. So, yeah, that's it was the insurance companies. That's why they have all the numbers when you go into like the doctors or whatever and they have like the number codes. Yeah, if like a mental health crisis or whatever, it was totally the insurance companies. So there's an interesting argument in the psychology field in itself about whether people should be using the DSM as much as they are or whether they should be more human centered with the way that they diagnosed individuals. So I'm on the human centered spectrum. I prefer to talk to people first before just immediately subjecting them to a permanent label. So, oh my gosh. Yeah, and it's such a double edged sword. To begin with, for example, I didn't know what was wrong with me and when it first ran off to the hospital and got diagnosed with something. So when they first diagnosed me with something, I was both happy and relieved. I'm like, Oh good, I'm not just a fucking asshole. I have something, right, I have something, like now I can go tell all my friends and family and Co workers that I just have bipolar disorder. And that didn't work out so well either. They're like, Yep, year, an asshole who has bipolar disorder. Great, like fuck. So anyway, so some people can be both. Yeah, yeah, thirteople, and for sure, because it takes a while. Well, and then it turns out later that I got diagnosed with something else. There's a list of like, Oh, you know about code morbidity. So later became straight depression and ADHD, which I had had for most of my life. So it wasn't manic, it was hyperactivity. Those type of things make it mixed up. Did they initially try putting you on medication for bipolar disorder, and that was like totally yful. All of them like it. Well, and it wasn't awful like the medication didn't have horrendous side effects, awful, it was awful and that we expected it to work and nothing worked. It was awful like that. Yeah, so, yeah, all the antipsychotics and everything dry them all went down the list, even the most recent ones, like some Bolta, up to about three years ago when we finally looked at my old, like childhood records, after I talked to my mom, who had, you know, not been talking, but found out oh yeah, I might have been both autistic and a total spas as a kid, which is something I could have used in my adult journey to my own sanity. So, yeah, I got off the bipolar mids because I'm not sure that that's accurate. See, that's the other concern I have to is that oftentimes they will over medicate, and I am I am totally promit cation and I am really against pill shaming because that is a common problem which is leading to a lot of the negative stigma and our culture. People don't want to take meds and then their symptoms get worse. You know, they don't want to deal with the stigma behind the medication itself, but they also overprescribe and it scares people and they need second you know, they need like a second opinion a lot of the times in these places to really understand. or they'll diagnose someone after meeting them one time and be like, Oh, well, I don't know, but you match these so here you go, here's a pill, and really people need more follow ups than that a lot of the time. Oh yeah, so much, so much. And that is the thing, and I don't really blame the doctors. I've seen, you know, by the time you have that kind of...

...a mental problem of disorder, illness whatever, a lot of people I know end up broke. So you end up going to the hospitals with the most burden. They have the lowest paid staff, with the highest case load and they're doing Oh yes, right, so they just want to ease the suffering at the moment. Clearly you're having a moment. Here's some, you know, tranquilizer, go settle down, take some lamital, go see a doctor in a week, that kind of thing. So I guess it's just to each individual. If you accept the label that they just gave you and you're going to go with it, well, you might get stuck on the wrong path for a couple of years. So yes, second and third opinion always. And Yeah, definitely big time. On the pill shaming, that's that's really rough. I was never really peel shamed because I was in a culture. That was the least of their problems. They were doing cocaine and you know, all right, all, but harder drugs than that. Even so, like, what's that? People that? Yeah, go ahead. That fashion fascinates me too, because there's a lot of people that will take drugs recreationally instead of taking the medication the doctors give. For some reason they view it is safer in a different way because, like it's been experimented on so much or something, I don't know, like it's self medicating as a whole. Yeah, yeah, and it's so risky nowadays. I didn't really think about it as I was, yeah, younger, but now, when I think that you could just be putting anything in your body literally and it you could just died at any moment, it's so weird. It is, and you know, they're I so before. Right now I work for the government as a vocational rehabilitation counselor but before I worked in just privatized mental health and let me just say, it is a mess, the whole system. I mean I'm over here in Oregon and I don't know about other states, but I know over here it is such a mess. There is just not enough looking into what's going on in a lot of the facilities, along with just so many horror stories people who have their meds and there's no support staff. There's they're like you're saying, they're very underpaid, which increases all of the trauma because then you have staff that aren't trained properly to deal with the diagnosis and the symptom sets that are going on and it is so chaotic. I believe you. Yet I've been to I've lived in California for most of my life, lived in Louisiana and Oklahoma also, and you know the basically the closer you move to a big city, if you're willing and able to dig into the roots of the you know, civic safety net, you can find help in those big cities, but man, the moment you get into an outskirt town or anything like that, year on your own. Oh a lot of the doctors in those areas. I've come to realize just from my friends experiences. I have friends that live in the middle of nowhere and move from the city and a lot of the doctors are like the reject doctors. Yeah, how do you mean? But they're like the doctors that couldn't make it in the city. So they end up out there and there they don't know what they're doing it there's no coverage or there's just so such limited funding, they can't really do anything. It's so frustrating to that's funny. I went to continuation school when I was younger because I got kicked out of regular school and I didn't learn until I was in college that the teachers at continuation school had also been kicked out of the regular high schools. Oh, like literally for cause. Well, like they had some some mark on their their performance record that they're like yeah, but we can't really fire you because of the Union, so we're going to send you to deal with the rug rat pack. Is the continuation school? Is that like the where the troubled kids went or whatever? Yeah, yeah, exactly, because I okay, so my history totally graduated in those one of those two just because, yeah, it was. I mean I didn't necessarily belong there. I wasn't one of the drug addict kids or anything, but, like I went through all this trauma when I was younger because my grandma died and it was like a lot to take on. So, like, I g graduated with such a low GPA, but now I have a master's degree. So yeah, and you're giving it back. So that's I mean, we're talking a lot about mental health, which is awesome, because my audience has followed me through this whole journey and I've even changed the name of the show several times, like it used to be. Originally, like five years ago, it was literally called bipolar style because I thought I had bipolar disorder. So as it's evolved, I just changed the name of the show, in the focus of the show. But they stick around. So they've been on this nft journey with me for the past several weeks. They know that I've fallen down the rabbit hole and it's fucking on. Right. I'm like, Whoa, this is the whole so good. Right, it's like nothing else I've ever experienced. It's I don't know, right, community and everything, maybe acid. Let me going back to the drugs. It's kind of like acid, I think as a kid, but it's so mindblowing and, to the point I was about to make a second ago, you are really giving back to the mental health community. So you went through the trauma as a young person and then you brought your way through it. He got out of the hell that is high school and then you decided to go back to school and Excel. But not just...

...that a thing that you didn't go become a banker or real estate agent or something like that. You are back to the mental health field. So I think that says a lot about you as a person and it also kind of reflects the way that you act in the mental health I mean, I'm sorry, in the NFT space on twitter, I see you like reaching back a lot and all of a sudden your work is really started to explode. So that must be super exciting. It is. I'm really excited about it because I'm hoping that in this space I can help create more equity, just because I feel like we need more diversity in the space in general as a whole. We need just more people and I feel like I'd like to help kind of onboard people that don't really know the space very much. Because I feel like my project in particular is pretty gentle for that. The community is really accepting. Everyone's really kind and empathetic and each of my moderators all have their own mental health lived experience. So anyone that might be having a problem or something it like, let's say, I don't know, somebody had like a trauma trigger or something. Yeah, they're pretty cool about it, like they wouldn't stigmatize or negatively impact somebody else. Like I've tried to keep it or like a really friendly atmosphere and I've worked really hard at that because I feel like there's not enough of that, and there is. There is a lot of community centered aspects in the NFT space overall and it's absolutely beautiful. But I think my project is a little bit different in the fact that I've really strived for like people that understand other people. So it's it's a very comfortable community. Isn't that Nice that you're able to kind of synchronize your life with nfts, like the things that you always thought you wanted to? Wish I could do this and some of that, but Geez, I have to keep a day job to pay the rent. But now all of a sudden things are aligning and it seems like people of the future are just going to lead way more aligned lives. I think so. I think the future is going to be in the metaverse. I really do. I think. I mean, I don't know, there's all those, you know, dystopian movies and everything, and there's this part of me I just it's glorified in my mind because I grew up with Cyberpunctystopia type stuff. I mean, I'm ammennial totally, but and I know, I just feel like humanity is moving in that direction at least a little bit, and I think in the future we're going to see a lot of implementation with these nfts are going to be able to be put in a video games and other things that are even more like tangible that people will understand, and I'm just really excited for the future of it. Yeah, it is hard to on board do people, so I'm glad you're given it. You're all as well. Part of that difficulty, I've found, is getting people to understand and believe in, you know, construct on top of construct. It's a lot like I was telling my friend the other day, it's a lot like trying to convince maybe the old gold miners and the eighteen hundreds to give me your gold and I'm going to give you this piece of paper. They're like what I think? I think another thing that people don't talk about enough in the space is a psychology behind fear of change. I mean there's a huge, huge fear of change among like humanity as a whole, and this is a big change. I mean we're taking art, which was a tangible physical object, and even though people are buying these assets and video games and things that don't have like real world value, they're having a hard time understanding the lack of like physical sensation. I guess with the art and the artists themselves are having to learn there's a whole new way to market and it's bridging with that crypto chain and they're people that maybe don't have experience with that. They're just struggling to understand. And with change also comes grief. Oddly enough, there's a huge similarity with change in grief. The same symptoms go for both. They go through the same symptom sets, and so it's kind of just going to be like this process of people getting used to it over and over and over and that's eventually how our society is going to have to adapt and there's going to be a lot of people are angry. They're going to go through that stage. You're going to become upset or sad. I mean, it's just it's just part of being human. Wow, that's a great point. I mean, I never really thought of it that but but that's all that grief is, is change. It's just it is. It's intense, immense change that causes sadness like a usually loss, but it doesn't have to be a loss or I don't know, without getting in the weeds here, but man, that's such a great way to look at it, because I've lost some things in life that, you know, in hindsight, it was just the change. It was just going to the unknown, leaving the Comfort Zone, and boy that that's such a valid point. When you're trying to on board New People, is really being empathetic and kind to the fact that the old ways are just, you know, we're basically almost, seems like, in telling them we're going to the Meta verse, it's like telling them your old world is dying. Please come with kind of Ye and imagine, like some of these artists have probably spent their entire adult lives, maybe even part of their childhood, I don't know,...

...working on these certain strict strategies and tactics that that work for them a little bit. Maybe they're selling prints here and there, maybe they're doing like a physical, I don't know, like a convention or something, but they're going to have to relearn all of that and part of the relearning is what brings on these feelings to having to adapt and change. Like the learning curve is so big sometimes for some of these things. And Yeah, especially with the metaverse, I mean it is like all encompassing and eventually it's just going to be huge. Yeah, it's not. It's not not go. I'm whatever. It's here to stay. I don't I can't conceive, of having seen what we've seen in the past even six months, that anybody that can comprehend what we've seen would even think that it was going away. It's funny too, because I've never really thought that crypto was used for crime, any more than regular money was used for crime. So who those those concepts that I often run into, weird concepts when I try on board people into the art space, and it's the resistance because Crypto to begin with. They go way back to like five steps ago, and I have a hard time backing up to address that point. But yeah, we have to address all the points to the new folks coming in. What are some of the primary arguments that you've heard? Well, a lot of people it's the right click save crowd it's the that's stupid. Why are you just saving a piece of a JPEG effectively? And Fortunately, most of the folks I know that I have real world conversations with are from the music industry, so they understand royalties and copyright in that sort of thing. So all I have to do to say to them is like, you are locking it into an infinite time capsule. You will always get which is so cool. It is so cool. I don't like imagine, frankly. I just think a couple months from now, a year from now or something, everything we post on instagram and facebook and twitter could potentially just automatically become an nft. I think so too. That's when we're yeah, that's when the fun begins. That's since we'll see a chain of possession and custody all the way to the origin and the genesis of everything. That would be awesome and then we could just move on to the more important things. Once we don't really care anymore about who owns what or did what, unless crime occurs, and then we'll be able to point it out. I also think while there is a lot of I mean scams and stuff, there's also more transparency. I mean you can see people's wallets, true, while it transactions from, you know, from the very beginning. So that's we're able to catch people easier in different ways. Like you know, there was that I don't know if you saw that, but there was that seventeen year old recently that stole like, I don't know, three hundred K or something in Crypto in like multiple discords and then came out it admitted it, literally admitted it. Yeah, that wholefully, but they were able to figure out who he was regardless, because they tracked his wallet and so they, you know, the community back Tom into a corner kind of was like Hey, what the hell, and he came out and was like I'm sorry. So you know, it's it'll police itself at a point too, because people aren't going to want to have their stuff stolen. So agreed, and it's so transparent. Yeah, the the point I was maddening. I got into it with an older gentleman. I'm an older gentleman, he was older than me, and he was like, well, what if they download someone's Jpeg and put it up as their own? I'm like, Dude, dude, back up, that is fraud committed in the real world. You're talking about fraud committed in the real world being brought into the blockchain. So think about this. If you brought for Aud into the blockchain, the moment you brought it into the blockchain, we're watching you. We can see every fraudulent activity. So that point, from the blockchain on, could be unwound. Right. So yeah, I mean go ahead. And it even makes me wonder. Like recently, I think, somebody had a couple of their crypto punk stolen or something. And Yeah, so, I mean the whole community was watching the transactions as somebody else bought them. And so if you're buying stolen property, I don't know, like it makes me wonder how it's going to eventually affect the court system and stuff too. Over and again you'll catch people, people who are buying it. If to be these cameras are gonna have trouble selling these things. Eventually, yeah, they won't be able to sell them and eventually we'll be able to find out who the people are behind those wallets. I mean they are anonymous for now, but they can be found out. Just like anything else. If you operate in the real world, somehow the law can come find you through subpoenas and warrants and things like that. So, yeah, it just gets back to like there's going to be ten percent criminals everywhere we go. So' that's kind of the biggest push back. And then the other thing is the construct of believing that Krypto was money to begin with and then you're going to buy fake art with fake money. Some people just have a hard time getting out of their heads. They're just so intra going to work and cash in their lowly paycheck and just struggling and being mad and like Whoa, we don't have to there's an option that. Well, there's also, you know, I don't mean to bring up the whole like capitalism and politics off. Please do we are treating for me. Yeah, I love this. I'm pretty socialist. Just to be...

...blunt, I'm we're going, and I mean pretty much everyone here is but yeah, which is you know, anarchy and socialism are like two sides of the same coin in a weird way. Really, they really are. Yeah, yeah, I've explained to my audience my type of anarchism to it just without rulers. I don't think we need rulers. It's not right, it's not crime and mayhem. It's no not having rulers exactly. I think personal freedom is really important. That's why I believe. But I believe as well. It's same thing and for me like, Oh my God, I lost my train of thought. It's I had such a good idea. Oh okay, so capitalism has trained us from a young age to work like we are literally really trained to be like, I don't know, like little machines, and people will lose their jobs or quit their jobs or whatever, and there's like not only a stigma that's negative, we have to untrain ourselves out of these habits, and so I just feel like there's a lot of pushback and fear with that. To like the idea of financial freedom. Everyone wants it, but when people have it sometimes I feel like they don't know what to do with it and they're scared of it. In a really weird way, just because they haven't been taught that that's okay. Yeah, for sure, but when you have that much power I have, I mean I literally go to sleep with freaking affirmations to try to unwind all the crap that I was taught as a child about things like money and and wealth and abundance, because it right, it gets in you. And I'm definitely of a generation like generation x. We are fucking you got to get up, you gotta have a job, you got to go to work, and I freak out when I see people not doing that, and then I just have to realize, like, oh, it's new, I don't have to do it either. And this is the cool part about this, because a lot of the folks who hear this also suffer from mental illnesses and disorders and things like that and may or may not be generally misaligned with their life. They feel miserable because they have to go do things they don't want to do, and I'm a big proponent of this idea that a lot of the mental disorders we encounter are because we're simply being forced to live in a capitalist society and act like a rat in a maze when you know we'd be much better off in ancient times. Well, and so working as a vocation, every abilitation counselor, which means I'm somebody that helps people with mental health challenges, fine work. Capitalism is hard, like it's really hard and no one wants to talk about how hard it is. For sure you feel it too when you move to some place slower, because I've lived in downtown SF like the tenderloin and the financial center in that area. You have to grind to live in downtown Los Angeles. On the Hollywood same thing I didn't realize was I was in it and I was wondering why my blood press, who was going up? I always felt anxious, just felt pressured right. Well, I got to the swamps of Louisiana on wound after about a year and realize like, Oh, there's no grind here, nobody cares if I don't do anything. So that was really interesting contrast and I think that kind of goes back to finding things that we can align with and, if not, to say in that every artist I know is mentally ill, but I know a lot of people who are creative that suffer because they're not connected with their creative output. Absolutely, we're taught to stifle it again from a really young age. Yeah, straight up. And you know what's what was really fascinating to me is how adults like. We have gyms and stuff, but I've thought about like how helpful and beneficial would it be for adults to play on playgrounds, to like promote creative play as an adult? Oh yeah, because no one ever talks about that. It's also stigmatized, but I think it could really open up some creative process for a lot of people to just let loose in that way. I'd be interesting study. I thought about it. Oh my goodness, so you're speaking my language. All the money I make, if I ever make any money from NFT's, is going to a nonprofit I'm putting together now called Emo Dojo, and it's going to be a creative studio where, since I'm a drummer, I my first thing was going to be like a rage room, but with drums, so just less to clean up. But then right, well, if it's drums, why not a giant art room with paints and things like that? And then I'm like, Oh yeah, and of course a digital space. So yeah, emo Dojo's just going to be at art studio for both music and, you know, traditional art. They love the idea. There's got to be ways again for adults to incorporate creativity and other daily life just to make it normal. Yeah, hang out and go play with each other. Well, and and it would make better people, better workers in a capitalist society any way, to promote play, because they'd be happier and they'd be more like willing to do it. There's just our whole system is just so it's so broken. Yeah, yeah, it sounded like a good idea. It's definitely getting off the tracks on too many people are suffering that don't need to be. That's too much. So another go ahead. Sorry, sorry, I was just going to say another thing in my master's program that really fascinated me. It fascinated me was learning about how much narcissism is in positions of power. Oh Yeah, so in our society we...

...also promote narcissism and sociopathic tendencies into positions of power and management positions, and that's also, I believe, what causes a lot of the anxiety and stress. Oh, we don't sure. Yeah, don't shame it. We companies will literally go after people and have these attributes to make them leaders good. It's unfortunate, so miserable too. And they run and they just run around gas lighting everybody, trying to make everybody feel small, all the way up to the highest levels of our government, but even to the lowest levels at small companies, because we see it through the media that narcissistic being rewarded. It makes it tough for like absolute, quote Unquote, good folks to win. Yeah, and it demoralizes everyone else under them. They don't want to work for that. Yeah, and they don't want to become that either. Right, they don't. That sucks. You are listening to epic thundercat in the EMO dojoe with Johnny emotions. Let's some. So we haven't mentioned really your art much at all. I want to promote like your art, especially because so you've got a great background and you're given it. You're all with credentials back to the mental health community, but your art project is exceptional. That's kind of what caught my eye. Originally, I've been into art since I was little. I was one of those little gifted kids they sent to the ballet and the museums instead of school, and well, eventually I flamed out like a fourteen. I'm like see, you got to get out of here. Go Do my drugs. But your art is something else. Get those tons of profile pic or PFP projects, as they call them in the space. Sometimes I'll explain the lingo to the mental health audience. They don't know what the Hell I'm saying sometimes. So right, but your artwork is extraordinary, like this audience. You guys, whoever's listening right now, you have to go check into this project. So I'll point the way and then I'll let's keep talking. So if you're listening and you want to go look at what we're talking about, just start at epic thundercatcom. So that'll take you. What kind of call you anyway? EPIC thundercat. Yeah, that's my screen name. Yeah, of course, and so also to explain that everybody in the nft space uses their screen name. It's just the way it works and I always respect people's wishes to do whatever the hell they wish. So I'm just going to call you epic thundercat to the Listener, to you guys listening. Yeah, yeah, go to epic thundercatcom and check out some of the stuff we're about to be talking about. Okay, cool. Just so they understand too, part of the reason I personally use a user name is also because I have clients. It's just better etiquette, yeah, to keep my work life and my nft life separate. I wrestle with that a lot because I've been doing mental health podcast for a long time, like and, like I said, it used to be called bipolar style, so there's no way I was going to associate that with my real identity. So yeah, they they know. I mean kind of, because I go back and forth with this particular audience. I think that's the only audience like my family. They don't care. They know me work life, every city I've moved to, they're like who is this Weirdo? Yeah, I think it's fun on it. Nowadays it's almost like kind of expected, like if you went into the NDFT space with your real name, you'd be like who's this guy? Like, what do you do? Be Kind of weird, right, I'm I'm started to do it because it is kind of weird. Specifically, like this whole time people using their real pictures on Linkedin and everything. I was shown up with the Dorky picture, but now everyone's using dorky pictures. I'm like Hey, I'm going to go the opposite. I'M gonna go put my real picture up on one of these accounts. But for the PODCAST, though, I think it helps that people see that I'm a real human so when I have people to be on the show, that makes sense. It's a real dude. But now I play as that Yin Yang face everywhere else. Yeah, I mean I've seen more and more people use their profile pictures, like their board apes and stuff, on Linkedin even yeah, becoming larger. That's because a lot of celebrities are buying into it and stuff. So it's a big flex. It's kind of like the online version of buying a Lamborghinia, I guess it is. That is so true. Yeah, I'll get there, though, more to my product, I'm not sure if I would buy a because I really am into art for the art sake and personally, my cut. My audience won't care that I say this, but I just I think the ape art itself is it's not my speed. It's not my thing. You know, I thought that at first. I was like, Oh, these are really like unattractive images, but lately just the environment, like I'm digging the whole cont because there's two different sides to nfts. There's the art side and then there's the profile picture side, and the PFP side is really more like community centered. So, like when I saw the recent stuff with them and like the yacht that they went on at all this fun stuff, I was like, no, actually, seems kind of cool. I wouldn't mind having one. But where it stands now, I mean they're going for like a hundred and fifty K and yeah, don't have that to drop. So yeah, straight up, I mean they very much are like driving a fancy car out on the road, unless you were somebody that got in early, which lucky them. But yeah, I'm sure there's not...

...left at this point. And to that point, I think those would be the crypto people, the people got into crypto early. But to two our point, weird, the people getting to as artist, getting into NF to use early. It's still really really it is still really early. I want to know about Y art. So how long have you considered yourself an artist? I have been painting since I was a little kid. I mean since I could write, I have been painting. It initially started I was drawing, like looney tunes and really cheesy stuff when I was really little and then I got into anime and then I felt too nerdy doing that, so I tried to get out of it and painted a lot of like monsters and like, I don't creepy stuff. I like creepy stuff. I like horror. Started painting that, but it also for so the audience knows, I have adhd and I have nonverbal turets, which means I have a tick disorder. It's really the same thing. I just say nonverbal treats so people understand, but it's called tick disorder and the only time that my body truly feels calm is when I'm painting. So I learned that at a young age when I was in class. It would help me focus when my teachers were talking. So I just developed the skill over time because I've been drawing forever. Yeah, it's great. Your Work Looks Great. What I see online, I assume is digital, but it has a very kind of watercolor kind of vibe to it. Yeah, I started so okay, I've always done watercolor, initially like regular on canvas, until covid happened and then I ended up trying digital. I got an IPAD finally and made the leap towards digital, because I really struggled with digital initially because it felt very I don't know, I didn't get into the flow state with it. I just my body. I couldn't do it. It's like I felt drain staring at the screen. But I found procreate on the IPAD and it feels so natural and fluid that it's the only program I've been able to use and I'm super grateful for it. So I really started digital like, I don't know, a year and a half ago, two years wow, at the most. Are All of your nfts that you have up that I can see on these galleries digital? Yeah, they're digital. And then so when I first started in the NFT space, I started on this really weird website, which is gone under pretty much at this point. I don't know if I'd call it a rug pole, but it was really weird. But I was a Beta artist on there and initially I grossed forty K in a month, which is it was like mind blowing and life changing. Holy can imagine. Right, yeah, I was. I remember that I was like shaking and stuff, and all that stuff was my actual watercolor work. I had like probably ten years of work on there, which kind of Bumms me out now just because I wish it was on like the regular block chains. I didn't know what I was doing in the beginning. I wasn't as educated. So if I could go back, I would have started on open sea, but on open see, the stuff that I have is yeah, it's all digital. I'm looking at the one you have an object, the fish. I love that one. Which one? Oh, yeah, yeah, right, I just started on that site. That couple days ago. Yeah, me too, ever since the name of the site that I can't pronounce, the hand site, went down. Yeah, it was all well, I guess it kind of like a lot of people did the same thing openseas gas prices were too high for our customers or potential buyers. So we're looking for options and object had the coolest name, I thought, and straightforward. It has a nice interface too. It looks. Yeah, really, it's it's nice looking. Yeah. So, yeah, I started the same thing. So I'm like, I'm all down with the TESZ for sure. Well, because I have a music background and I think test will be big moving forward. I know a lot of the big players in the music world have already plunked down lots of real world money into that. Really, I actually had. I haven't kept up on the teszo stuff as much, so I'm still pretty new to it. Yeah, you should get your test name. It's still only whatever tas one time. Yeah, I wonder are they going to do are drops for that too? I don't know. I didn't get into it for that, but once I heard about the air drop, I'm like, well, let me pick up a couple more of these test names. Just right because of the music space they and because there's easy like, I don't know, I'm about to get musical dotes. Nobody bought musical yet and I'm thinking that might be good. Yeah, anyway. So the test things really cool, but I just meant to mention that the quality of this, this fish picture here has a kind of a Yin Yang quality to it. Little balance and the swirlds. Yeah, I've tried to go on Teso's I've done I did. Okay, so I have my initial collection, which is like more broad spectrum emotional states, kind of to bring awareness to emotions and how they impact us and then as people collect, then when they get enough, and I have that written down. It's in my life. It's not really a road map. I called a vision map because I'm an artist, not I like that. I'm not company, got investor, class person, right, like I there's I feel like there should be a separation, because people, collectors come in and they're wanting artist to do the things that these companies do, and when you're one person doing all of these things, it's not going to be the same experience as a giant company. It's just going to feel different, and so I...

...prefer vision map over road map, to separate. I love that. And it was actually the amount of work you've done on your map monsters of mind. Let me let me say that more clearly so that the transcription software picks it up better on your monsters of mind project. So this is super, super cool and knowing now how much work all of this stuff takes, generally speaking, you've put an extra amount of work in this. So to the viewer, what she's developed is almost a serious like a every portrait portrays a different emotion and if you collect enough emotions, it's game, a fid so that you can get points. Can I mean that's that's a good start for the listener, but tell me more about how you game a fide the emotional set there. So essentially, I thought about how there's so much complexity and mental illness, right, and that a lot of people, when they get these diagnosis, they have trouble like understanding the emotions that they're feeling that are relating to these diagnosis, I guess. And so for me I created it so that there's like a level one where you have the basic emotional states and then your air dropped by more basic diagnosis, if you will. Level too. They're more complex, which the art also got more complex, because I also knew over time my art would develop and change right normal. So then the air drops for that are more like personality disorders and things like that that are a little more intense in the DSM. And then level three, which will be even more complex. Well, have the air drops, air drops, by the way, or like free, free pieces that I gift people. They'll be like that. Kind of story endings and therapy and things like that. I want to incorporate kind of like, I guess, conceptualized story endings. So when people collect these, I also when they get their their air drops, their free ones, I write in what order they got them in, and I'll write something like you started your life with great sadness, and I'll go in and explain like the emotions as they collect them and leading into why I pick the mental illness that they received. That's fantastic. I love that and it really does kind of I wont say closures that the right word to use for their but it does bring it full circle. So it feels like you've completed a mission in that sense and causes you to move forward. Right. So that way, I mean it's and no one has to have a diagnosis to play it and they don't really pick the one that they get. It's just based on the choices that they made, kind of like a pick your own adventure game. Yeah, I guess. Yeah, that's so great. You know what I figured out it? I figured it was a decent way to spread awareness about mental health challenges because, especially, like, I don't know, I feel like in this space there wasn't a focus on it initially. There's been a couple projects that have come out since I started. Lost Boys is one. That's a profile picture one, but as far as like what I'm doing, I haven't seen anything similar. Personally I don't see many especially done to this level. Because so what makes yours different to me for sure, is the amount of artwork you create. You are a prolific artist. You create so much different kind of artwork. It definitely have a style and some of these just love to have blown up on the wall behind me, for example. So I think people you have to do yourself the favor to go look at all of these things. If you go to OPENSEE DOT IO collection monsters of mind, you'll see what I'm talking about right now. And so this is fascinated because you can. So here's another thing with skeptics, they're like it's all bullshit whatever. Well, if you go to the website I just mentioned, you can see that they're trading volume and if you click enough buttons, you can like literally see how much money can be made from art. And so just suspend belief for a second and imagine if you can go do your thing, whether it's, you know, pay to picture, take a photograph, play some music and upload it to a website like open see, for example, or object then man, you could actually make some money and it doesn't really cost you much. Talk about the cost, though. So we talked about the high price of gas. Did you get started uploading some of these collections, like the monsters of mine, before gas went up to it cost you? I guess I'm just getting at how much did it really cost to get the ball rolling for you as an individual artist? So I think when I did the first one, because on open see you don't pay to mint. I mean I still paid a lot in gas in other ways, but when I put a regular listing up I'm not paying the gas fee the consumers. But the first initial one I had to pay two hundred dollars. However, if I do an auction, I have to pay a percentage all of the gas. So I paid. There's a fee that goes to open see. It's like two point five percent or something right, and then on top of that there's the gas fees, which I mean I've seen it as high as like two hundred bucks. It just depends it. So really what the gas fees are is it depends on how many people are processing a transaction at that time. But there's going to... a theoreum the second it's gonna be like an upgrade and then eventually the gas problem will go away. But where we stand now. Unfortunately, it is a thing, but from what I understand you can ride off the gas fees on taxes as a loss, so I'm looking into that at least. Yeah, that's great, and this podcast is coming out the middle of November right now, and I anticipate level to for theorium should be done by, you know, first part of the year coming up. So it's yeah, it's not that far away. And they've got competition like Tezos and Solana breathing down their neck with much lower gas fees on their platforms. So all signs are pointing too good. Things like the cost is just going to come down for people to get into it. Yeah, I've been, I mean I personally, because the gas fees are so high. A lot of artists will charge like zero point one, which is like five hundred dollars or something four hundred right now. I don't something around there. I only charge zero, zero five. So for me it's like a hundred and eighty ish, depending on a theoreum, but I've kept my prices pretty low in comparison to other projects on that change, just because I know that there's again a lot of people coming into the scene that can't afford to put out a ton of money, and it's still a lot of money. But another thing that I've thought about and I've talked about with my community as if we continue to do so well, I'd really like to put a percentage into some sort of like community pot, if you will, and then people they are active in the community, we can have a vote and say, Hey, this person's been here for x amount of time, we should give this money, we should use this money towards like getting them a piece of art so that they don't have they can segue into it without having to pay for it, right if they've been around. Yeah, for sure there's. In fact, I just did an interview with the gentleman named Conrad who runs, I guess, a doll, for lack of a better word. I'm not sure it's officially a doll, but it's a discord channel server called outcast verse, so outcast versus doing that. It's kind of the same thing. That's a mental health leaning discord server where nft artist hang out and I think what they're doing is once a week they're from. Not sure if it's game, a fight or how. It's democratically organized, but through the server. They pick one of their artists, buy a piece of their art and then promote it on twitter and whatnot. That's nice too. When is it called cast verse? Yeah, okay, I'll have to look into that. Yeah, they're always all these looks. There's so many great new projects popping up all the time. It's so cool. Yeah, right, and was really neat. Is that the art? Since art is very subjective, it kind of doesn't matter. There's art for all different types. So when you're into NFT's you don't have to search by art type. You can search by bye bye, by feel and if you want to hang out with the investor class and just try to crawl your way up to get it ape, you can do that. If you want to support small artist or hang out with people that have other similar mental issues, you can do that and you feel like you're at home. I think that's one of the bigger takeaways from all of this is people are finally starting to find their kind of true tribe or community. Yeah, I think like my monsters of mine twitter. My pinned post on it right now says not to mask who you are and just be yourself, because the truth of the matter is like I mean we're lacking some demographics in the NFT space, this is true, but eventually this face is going to grow. Just be yourself and your tribe will happen over time. I mean you, you will find them, please, people are out there. Yeah, so it. Please be yourself, because it's just to your point. Like, obviously I'm a middle aged white dude. There's plenty of US everywhere, all over the fucking planet. And kind of depressingly, once this nft take took or took off, I guess I kind of noticed the same thing. It instantly became like a mirror of the real world. It's like ninety five percent white guys. are like, Jeez, I'm glad you're all hiding behind your your PFP's, because if you weren't, this would look really bad. So, yeah, it's I wish we were. I mean I wish the blockchain could actually tell us. Is that's is that another white guy? Is that a white guy again, something like that. I think, luckily, the again as it grows, though, because it's really just a matter of reaching those demographics and figuring out what they need to get involved. Yep, because everyone should have the ability to have financial freedom at some point. Yeah, I mean really, and this kind of is as level of entry field, let's call it. The playing field stills kind of stacked against, you know, newcomers, let's say. But the entry field is really level. So if you want to just take off and if you think one type of person or a class of people has it easier, you could actually be that person in nft world and try it out for yourself. But to thundercats point, it's just better to be yourself. It's so much easier and you will find your own tribe and then you can go create art. It's so, so amazing. Well on. Another thing I think is really great is I've noticed a lot of...

...people that didn't used to do art are trying to. They're trying so many different creative outlets even though they don't know what they're doing, and I think that is such a beautiful concept. It's really pushing people into this creative zone. It's like almost like being a kid again. I love it. It's really cool and newcomers seem, in my mind, my jaded, like long term marketing mind, newcomers seem to have the advantage. Anytime you get a giant property, aknown intellectual property, a superstar, if you will, whether it's a sports hero or music person. Anytime they come into the NFT space, they don't necessarily succeed. In fact, I don't haven't seen any succeed yet. That's why a lot of them, I feel like, are going and buying like board apes and stuff right now, because, I mean, whenever they try to make own collection is people are like no, thank you, which is cool though. Yeah, I love that it could go up and down the whole spectrum that way. Here's a hard question, or tricky question, because I know of a couple of blind people that listen to the show. How would you describe your work to a blind person? Let's see, I would say because, HMM, it's very like messy. Was Structure. I'd like a lot of texture, like if you could, let's see, if you could feel it, I feel like it would be very textured. I don't explained. Do they understood? They do think? Can they see color, like do they know where they blind from childhood to I'm thinking of we blind from childhood. But you described it really well in the sense that if you could feel it instantly, you pulled out the empathy card. Most people wouldn't think that blind people feel their way through lives, but I like how you just said if you could feel it, it would feel kind of messy. I feel like it would have a lot, a lot of messiness, because emotions are messy, they are chaotic and it's okay to have them be chaotic and I think it would be also like sometimes my art is kind of spooky to just so they're aware, like sometimes it can be kind of like a little bit spoky and creepy because from my experience with having mental illness, like a lot of times this these feelings of happiness and stuff, they are fleeting, like you have good days, but there's also a lot of really crappy days. So that's why a lot of my art gears towards like the darker spectrum as well. It's really Cathartic. I love looking at it as much as you may have enjoyed creating it. Honestly, I'm a big Fan of midnight society, Special Monkey. That one was pretty awesome. Thank you, and I came up with the Midnight Society because I used to really like, are you afraid of the dark? When I was a kid and I felt like nostalgia is another very important feeling that a lot of people have. Sorry, my cat's me outing. If you hear anything in the background. Cute, she keeps bothering me. But yeah, I just felt like nostalgia is like a really strong, powerful emotion and something kind of fun too, because you can't always have things be depressing or real. Sometimes you need to have that selfcare time where things are a little bit like, I don't know, out there. Yeah, I agree. I mean for sure, I'm not like coming from a music background. A lot of times to sad song will come on, you know, a playlist and I'm already in a sad mood and I'm like, you know what, I'm just going to go with it, I'm just going to cry out and just let this sad feeling flow through on Max and yeah, I think it's actually makes life worth living. In that sense, absolutely, I try really hard with my project to cater to like when I'm drawing an emotional state, I try really hard to think about the audience that I'm drawing for and what they might be feeling, which is where a lot of like I get in like a really deep flow estate and I put myself in these emotions as I'm drawing them. So that's amazing at me. It's this is the part where I kind of script because I'm sitting here staring at your drawings while you're telling me this, and I'm about to fall into a hypnotic state myself. That's so wild. That's why a lot of the like a lot of them, all of a sudden started having all these really jumbled lines, and it's just I started getting really deep into the emotional states of like when I was drawing them, and like these lines just started appearing. So it's almost like a projection of like, I don't know, like I want to see like my psyche. I know how to how to say it, but it's like a projection of like my mind onto the paper. Yeah, now, that's that's that's a good way to say it, because I think when I look at that I kind of get the feeling that you're talking about. If you can, if you could imagine an emotion, almost therefore one came to you in a vision while you were sleeping or something. This is kind of like the Phantom like look. I would imagine. They look like sort of like a cartoon, sort of creepy, but friendly. Yeah, it's kind of a good, nice duality to it all. Yeah, I try to make it a lot of different feelings at once, I think a lot of the time. But I will say a lot of the things, because a lot of my underlying mental health...

...stuff is also anxiety related. Yeah, so I feel like a lot of that comes out with all of them. I can't really help it. It's just part of me. But what of the one of the neat things about digital art is the added element of movements, and I noticed some of these have like a that glitch effect which really drives the picture home because it's already has that, like said, like a messy feel, like a busy vibe, and then the glitch just takes it over. And I'm a huge fan of color. So in all that we've talked about, I don't think we've mentioned color, but all of your stuff is very colorful, even though it might be dark or slightly creepy, sometimes it's super colorful and it's oddly enough, I've always done that, even when, even if my water color, for some reason my art's always been subtly creepy. Don't know what. Well, at least since I started drawing, monsters just kind of happened. Yeah, but we've always been colorful monsters. They've always been I kind of I don't know, like I want them to have like color splash but also be slightly unnerving, kind of like a mix of both. So it's almost confusing. Yeah, that's I love that and it's a great, like I said, a duality. It's it's the smooth and the pleasantness of the color and then you're drawn in by the squiggles and such. And I've been trying to animate more to you. I had a request in my inbox asking me specifically for more animated pieces, because I think people are wanting to get like animated picture frames. It's becoming more and more popular. HM, so I've been trying to go through and make sure that everything is animated lately. I love this. I could sit and look at your heart all day. Nervousness. Three is amazing. Thank you. So I think I might the one that's lowest on the floor right now. I might buy it up. I think I'm going to buy it and change the Metadata so it's moving and then use it as a giveaway here soon. Well, that's a whole other show. In fact, could you come back like a couple of months so we can check in on you? I think you'll probably be rich and famous and retired from your day job by then, maybe, although I might still work my day job. I love helping people, just to keep it open. Yeah, for sure, that you know, and helping people's a lot of my inspiration for what I'm doing right now. So, yeah, you could tell well, and a lot of people mean well, but you actually have artistic talent that really superpowers your effort, I think, and that mean you know, I mean you're you do it with people a lot that have mental problems and a lot of those people mean really well and they just haven't connected in life because they don't have a thing. Your art is definitely your thing. This is amazing. I had someone tell me a couple times that they have autism and they told me that my art help them understand emotions in a different way because they struggle with it. Yeah, and I felt personally like that was really moving to hear because it's not something that I had personally thought about, but I just to really appreciate it that. I thought it was really sweet. Yeah, that is sweet and they've got an excellent point. Because a lot of time if you're on the spectrum, you can't necessarily read faces or you can't read subtle signs, and you're all right, is more intense than subtle, I guess it is a good way to put it. Like it takes the emotion that would be just a subtle emotion and shows you the real depth of the intensity of what that emotion can actually be like for the for the person feeling it, right through colors and stuff. You know, I was thinking there's a term for people that see emotions as colors. Yeah, and I think I like cinnastasia or something like that. I'm pretty sure I have that. Oh, I don't know that. I don't have it with numbers and letters, but but emotions and other things like definitely have color. Is it hard to balance your artistic side with the more logical side that's required to put together a community and the the gamification part of your project and all that? You know, not really. Oddly enough, I feel like the NFT space is so new that the creativity's endless, and that's part of what I love so much about it. It's you know, when I first started I was really nervous and I was kind of like. It almost felt directionless because I was like I don't know what I'm doing. I would ask people for advice and be like Hey, what should I do, and people would be like just do whatever you want. I'm like, UM, too vague. I can't want too many things. I know that feeling right. So I just started hearing people's opinions and taking them kind of a grain of salt, but also applying like aspects of them, and that's how this happened. I really think a lot of it is just treating people like people, hearing the collectors and their needs and applying them. And it's really that simple. I mean I've had a lot of people recently ask me how to how did you make a successful project, and it's just hearing people. They're just people. Make friends. Yeah, and listening around. Well, you're a...

...trained listener, like if you work in that space, you you have training and practice listening to people. So that's a big plus. Anybody could do it, but it takes it does take a lot of practice, that is true. Yeah, it can be more difficult, especially to understand like the underlying feelings of when somebody saying something. Yeah, that's great, I'm one. They might be saying one thing but needing another thing. It happens a lot with people most of the time. Yeah, or just because of the way they're raised, if they were raised by narcissists, they tend to, you know, walk on eggshells and not say what they mean. Oh my God, it tries me crazy. When I'm around people I could tell they've been raised by narcissist because they have this kind of oblique way of asking for things because they don't want to impose, but they need something done. Yeah, they have to learn how to find their voice a lot of the time, which is a process in itself and often takes a lot of therapy. Yeah, for sure. Well, I'm glad you're in this space, for sure, and you're doing really well with your art and you clearly are giving back with your skill and you're training in the mental health space. So so much of that is needed all around the country in the world. So I can't thank you enough. It's you know, how do you thank somebody for doing things that are just so necessity in modern life? Thank you, I appreciate it. I I won't be going anywhere. I'll be here forever. I am a forlifer for sure. So, yeah, I've done the road. I'll still be here doing something. That's the really cool thing that I found about artist in the NFT space versus projects or companies, is that the artist was making art long before and ifts were around and they will keep making art. So invest in artist, you know. I mean it's fun if you're an investor, to take your crypto and play the PFP game, for sure, but also like check out actual art and if you're selling like that's back to what I was saying earlier. That's really what caught my eye first was your art. I saw your art first and then I read how cool your project was. So if your art wasn't popping, I wouldn't have read further. So, yeah, it takes a lot of different moving parts to make a successful project, but I think you're just great proof that people can do it and it's a real thing and if anybody wants to look at your work, they'll. They have to do is go to your website and check it out. Tell me what do you want to share? Anything else and you is there a best way for people to dive into your world? Um, I think just starting with my website and then going to my monsters in mind. Thing works to you, although I think also my open sea has a discord link. My discord is actually probably the start, the best number one point, because that's where we do all of like the events and games and things like that, and once we hit thirty etherium volume here soon. Last time we did a game or a game event. It was like a party really, and the MODS and myself we had like actual games in like it was all verbal. We were actually talking over the voice chat and played a bunch of things and then I handed out like twelve free pieces of art. That was like center bucks and gas fees, but we were it. Yeah, yeah, it was expensive, but you know, it's just part of giving back. I mean, I'm getting all this money from people. I need to make sure that their money is well spent. So it's a great reinmus for sure, right, and that's again it's all open ended. That's why it's so fun. We can just do whatever we want. Is a community. It's great. That is a weird thing about whenever you make any crypto money, it's like yeah, okay, because I suspend belief to play Crypto and then when I make money I kind of suspend belief backward. They can. That's not actually real money. Just leave it there. Play with this week. It's like monopoly money, but not. Yeah, because you don't. I'm like. I'm like, well, I don't want to convert it yet. I don't really have anything I need to buy this week or anything, so I'll just play it. and You keep doing that time and time again, and then it grows and grows and rows. Like what now? So I can only imagine the future when you have enough money to just like yeah, I want to buy a castle. Hmm, is now the day to buy that castle? I don't know. Well, I just even tonight I finally made the leap into a profile picture project which I had been debating for a long time, the gutter cats gang. Who that's and that was what that's exciting. Yeah. Well, I've heard really good things about it and I had a few people tell me that they're really good with being supportive and stuff. So I was like okay, and it was like threezero dollars, USD technically, but you know, I had it and it doesn't it doesn't feel like that, like right, I spent it, and now, I mean I've gotten a ton of follows. I've made friends already. It's it's just such an experience in itself. Like, yeah, it sounds like a lot of money to people who are in the space, but it really is worth it if you can afford it. Yeah, and you can work your way up to these things too. I mean you can trade and flip and then eventually get up there and the three thousand doesn't it's not that much anymore. No, that's the thing. It's a lot to the average person, and most of my listeners are still in the cash dirt world. But right once you get over the Hump and into nft's, for example,...

...get that couple of hundred dollars to load up your collection, you can start making art and then you can buy your own nft and then you could flip it wait for it to, you know, increase in value. And they increase in value daily. This is like day trading of the S, like when thecom's first came around, right, this is the speed at which things increase in value now. So that's really amazing. It is so fast. It is is so volatile to a degree, but also like once you know who in the community, kind of knows what they're doing and who people are like really just hanging out on twitter and getting to know everyone is like the start. I wouldn't buy anything just for the listeners out there. I wouldn't buy anything initially right away. I would go on twitter and start networking in and kind of get to know who people are to know what to buy. That way you don't end up like wasting money on things that aren't that you know they're going to tank, because that does happen, oh for sure. Yeah, and if it's going to mean if you just buying for art sake, then buy on on the visual esthetic value, on the price, if you're buying for community and all those other things. Yeah, definitely, do you research. It's pretty easy to do the research. Just follow people who are cool and look at who they're following and see how they became decent humans and the NFT space. It'll all work out. I noticed you'll basically tell people buy things you love, because that way if the price goes down, you don't feel bad. Yeah, you still love it. Right, that's so, and you have it forever, exactly, and there's proof, and if you ever ever want to get rid of it, you could still sell it. Yeah, there's I don't know, aside from the initial kind of risk to get into the game, there's not much downside at all, especially for artists. Agreed now, I own my only regret is not getting into the sooner. I didn't know about it. Yeah, I does. Yeah, I don't know how much sooner we could have known. I mean I'm pretty up on Tech and art and design and like, well, okay, I'm not up on crypto investing. That's the one thing I was not up on and okay, now I am. Fill in the blank. Yeah, right. I first, when I heard about it I thought it was ridiculous, like everybody else, admittingly. I mean my friend Jonathan had called and I was just like, I don't know, was so weird. But the second I heard about the royalties and how it works and how thinking about how artists have been underpaid historically for so long, I was immediately like yes, we need this so bad in the art world that I was I don't know, it just hit me and I was like I'm doing it. Yeah, there's no going back once you're once you're in your in. That's great. I noticed your discord is actually on your twitter bio. So for the listener. If you just go to twittercom monsters of mind, you'll see epic undercats monsters of mind project there and the discord server will take you to what's the name of the midnight special? Mid that society? Society. Yeah, cool, I think I'm going to join there. If you see Johnny motion show up, that's me. Awesome. All right. Yeah, it's a fun it's a fun community, especially we had I had Gary v share a piece of my art the other day and saw that definitely complate. We got more people in pretty quickly. It was pretty cool. That is awesome. You're on fire. Well, ain't going anywhere, so no, see, that's the great thing for a true artist to be on fire. It's like it's only going to be great, like buy some art now. You could just limit your output. Let's make admittingly. I mean I've cried like multiple times just from feeling validated. I mean I had wanted to be an artist since I was a kid, my whole life, and I work so hard and I thought I would be stuck working a lower income social services job forever. And like now I actually feel like a real artist. That's like a great my smiles so big when I hear stories like that, it's life changing. Yeah, absolutely right. I mean it sounds so sounds to the new listener that just came in on this podcast, it sounds like we're talking about people winning the lottery, but it's even better than that because it's money they made from their own creative output, right. I mean there's no more beautiful thing in my opinion than seeing, because I've been there, but also watching other artists that sell something and they're, you know, writing about it on twitter and they're shaking and they're crying and they're like so excited because they sold out. I mean this happens every day in the space, all the time, for sure. So beautiful. I love that. So, as a therapist, I have to ask this because it comes up in my own mind a lot. Or I don't mean to put therapist on you for not a therapist, but since you're in that realm and you have that training. All right, the topic of toxic positivity comes to mind when I see people saying we're all going to make it, because statistically, of course we're all not going to make it. But then on the flip side, without that on ongoing encouragement and positivity, I wouldn't be there. So do you? Do you understand what I'm talking about? First and then do you see any problems with people jumping into soon just thinking it's going to be the end all to... all, to help their life, when it's actually yes, and I get worried about the people who maybe don't understand their risks either, because, yes, they're I mean, yeah, you can have financial freedom, some people can, but if you're going in and you're just throwing money around and you don't know what you're doing, I mean that that is terrifying to me because people, after they lose all this money, they get suicidal, they get severely depressed and sometimes there is no get coming back from that, there's no recovering. And then the we're all going to make it thing. It doesn't really apply, but I mean I think it's so early that if somebody hangs out and gets to learn the community really well, I think that there is a really high chance of getting to make it, especially because, I mean even in the space, after you network enough, you can meet famous people, mean real life, like someone that I knew on my facebook for a long time. He got into NFT's before me. He made. Oh my God, it was like Voodoo dolls, Voodoo dollars or whatever on alsoe he, he does pretty well, but he just went to the boarding yacht club event that happened recently and he was like, Oh, I got him partying with like all these famous people and they're all really wealthy and he was like really excited, like post you on facebook. So these things can happen, but you have to be educated and know what you're doing, I guess. Yeah, yeah, and know that there are ups and downs, like don't go in all like. So my know, my worry about some of the those folks who jump in think they're going to make it. They last a week and then they get super, super depressed because they have no patience and they think like, Oh Gosh, this was supposed to be the dream for everybody, and even even the dream for everybody is no good for me. I guess I'm out of here, so I just I guess I'm just want to remind people to be patient, like and to your point, don't spend money you don't have on things you don't need. But another thing I've noticed is give it at least twelve months. I am kind of an anomaly and I recognize that I've done decently well for my projects only four months old. Wow, so I've done yeah, you kick. Yeah, that's great. It's for some reason I've done really well, but most people, a lot of times I need it takes a full year, twelve months of consistency, because collectors need to know you're not going to disappear. They need to know that you're going to be there for a really long time, and you have to build friendships and build report with people, like with anything else. So it's kind of like being an nft artist is also being a CEO, it's being an artist and it's being like a community engagement specialist at the same time, like you're doing all of these things at once. Yep, not just being an artist. Yeah, well, maybe like being a politician running for office, like you can't really do anything wrong in your community. If you do, they're gone their leave. If you're not a stand up, virtuous person, they'll yeah. Well, and I think what we're going to see is the people who are actually dedicated to their communities or the people that are going to come out of it really successful. Yeah, agreed, and in good art helps, but it's not a requirement. I think that's the anomaly we speak speak of with your situation, is that your art kicks ass and you're dedicated to your community. So Bravo for that. Like and I really appreciate you coming on the show. It takes a lot of courage to get up and just speak on a show or a podcast you've never heard of or, you know, just a weird thing to like, come home on a Sunday evening and talk on a podcast. But you've done an awesome job and I think my listeners will love it and man, I just can't I can't thank you enough. Now here's an odd question. I hadn't thought about this until now, or you know, right before we record him. If I save this audio file as a wavefile, do you have a problem with me uploading it somewhere as a nft? Oh, I don't care. Go ahead, it would be neat. That's fine. I think I'm going to so if I do, it'll probably be on object and I'll probably be using tz because that's the music arey. But I don't see many podcasts people putting this shit up on the Internet like W I think that's a good idea. Why not? Yeah, just do it. I'm going to go record some drum tracks and put them up there. Took to throw a bunch of Spaghetti. Are Everything whatever. Just put it off there, see what happens. And now back to the wall.

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